Sgwrs:Rhestr o gopaon Cymru

Mae'r erthygl hon yn rhan o WiciBrosiect Cymru, prosiect cydweithredol ar Gymru. Os ydych am gyfrannu, ewch i hafan y prosect, ymunwch â'r drafodaeth a chewch restr o bethau sydd angen eu gwneud. Ychwanegwch y nodyn hwn i unrhyw dudalen sy'n ymwneud â Chymru neu Gymry.

Gan mod i wedi rhoi llinell syml ar ben eithaf y dudalen sy'n cynnwys cyfesurynnau XY (neu Latitude / Longitude) mi fydd pob un o'r copaon hyn yn weladwy ar eich ffôn clyfar neu fapiau Google ayb ayb. Mae cyfarwyddiadau sut i wneud hyn yn y Caffi, yn fama. Mi fuasai'n gret pe bai pob lleoliad, adeilad hanesyddol, tref, pentref, cromlech ayb ayb yn cynnwys y linell syml hon. Daw dydd! Llywelyn2000 15:33, 4 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

(Sorry for the Saes, it is all I know, I hope that is OK) I have run the first section through a (mildly derided) combination of find/replace, batch convert and spreadsheet, as a trial run (Much better than endless individual cut and pastes). I would be happy to do the rest of the list if that is helpful. I have added the geogroup|section box (Not sure where best to put it though - it is not right where I put it). Is is possible to translate it - sorry I have not strayed into cy space before!)

I wonder whether the list could be better with the streetmap ref in a template, to reduce difficulties if the link changes. I did something similar with the 'nature on the map' link on the List of SSSIs in Devon. If there was a short word (keeping it Welsh would look good) the tooltip could explain what it was, and it could then follow the grid ref, rather than need a table entry of its own. Just a thought. I can have a go at the rest of the list if you are happy with the layout. en:User_talk:RobinLeicester RobinLeicester 20:39, 17 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Sorry, I just discovered the geogroup doesn't work yet. Is the coord template the same as the en version? There is something in the coord template that transfers the data to kml in some way. RobinLeicester 20:48, 17 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Dschwen has fixed the cy geogroup (by adding a project parameter to it)! I have had a go at adapting the link box described for this, and it could look like:-

Many thanks en:User_talk:RobinLeicester and Dschwen! The first part looks really good. I've also left a note on your Talk Page. Can you replicate this format on: Scottish Peaks), Round Cairns (in the UK) and the Ring Cairns here??? Thanks again - diolch yn fawr! Llywelyn2000 05:32, 18 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Sorry to say that having got perhaps 2/3 way through the reformat, we have hit a limit. The problem seems to be the expanded code size, which is now at its allowable limit of 2Mb. The coord is the single biggest factor in that - it expands to over 800 bytes per entry, not huge, but starts to build up when repeated 700+ times. The table format adds a bit, and the re-format of streetmap link is a bit of an increase. the problem is that so far as I can imagine, only removing coord from the list would enable it to fit - which would defeat the original objective. I think some choices need to made by those who have done the huge effort on the original data. Options might include

• North, Mid, and South Wales lists (the individual ranges then could also be cross-indexed on all pages)
• a text-only list linking to individual lists for each mountain range - with the problems of maintaining in effect two lists.
• trying to pare down the list to its minimum, and see if it can be made to fit.

I am happy to finish the formatting as it now is, but am reluctant to make the output yet more mangled. Now the data I have done is all on my spreadsheet, I can output it in other formats as required. Whatever way it goes, the end result will be a superb resource. RobinLeicester 19:14, 18 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Yes, what a pity! Can we not ask for the buffer to be liffted: maybe doubled to 4Mb? If we're hitting the limit, then others will surely do the same? The coordinates are crucial; the map link isn't. Might it not fit if we delete the links to the external map? I think that would be my first choice, and as you suggest, a three page (or better still: 2? North / South) would be my second choice (with map links). We could also do without the OS coordinates, if that helps! I take it that deleting the images wouldn't make any difference? I dare not suggest another list which needs upgrading, sometime: 2,000 Scottish peaks which you can find here !!! I see that the en counterpart has divided the Scottish ranges to four: Southern Highlands • Northern Highlands • Islands • Lowlands. Maybe I should follow suit! Pity though as keeping them together as one family is the best choice. Thanks again for all your help - it is REALLY appreciated. Llywelyn2000 06:04, 19 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Having tried a few things, my reading is that the process of template expansion is the problem, rather than size of page (altough even that is starting to get very sluggish for anyone on a substandard connection). Beacause coord calls so many other templates, my guess is that just a list of coords by itself couldn't go far above 500. To keep the momentum, would you be able to divide them between north and south pages (and keep the current page to turn into an index page, perhaps). If you would like to do the same for the scottish 2000, I could process them as well.

I tackled one of the cairn lists yesterday, and followed a link to the cadw complete spreadsheet of all 4000+ scheduled monuments. So far as I can see the en pages are very sketchy on this, so I would be quite interested in working on matched en and cy lists for all the various types. Is that something you could help facilitate. (Anything more than data formatting on the cy pages leaves me a bit lost I am afraid. Three very happy years at y Brifysgol Dewi Sant, Lampeter, many years ago, left me with a small smattering of Welsh phonetic reading, but no comprehension at all! It has been good to re-engage with some of that.) We probably need a forum other than this page to take the SAM lists forward! Thanks. RobinLeicester 17:18, 19 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Hi Robin. Scottish peaks: Yes please! CADW database: it's in English, so I've had to translate / find the original Welsh names which is time consuming. I've requested a FoI Act Welsh version a week ago - we'll see! In the meantime, yes, let's work together; I really do believe that you can move mountains. Yesterday's round cairn lists look very good. I did leave a note of thanks! I have finished around 270 hillfrts, and I have only the OS. I left you a note here. Ymlaen! is the Welsh for "Let's Move ON!" or "Forwards!" and even "Attack!" It's the only way! Llywelyn2000 17:46, 19 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Alternative approach: If one of the objectives with the coords is to provide a distribution map, then we could take a screen shot of a completed section's Bing geogroup, and then add that to the page as a picture (and number the entries to match-up). The coord template calls could be taken out of that section (leave the actual data, for geocachers and satnavers, and leave the blue MAP link, which is much cheaper on templates). It would retain all the data (so would be easy to manipulate or re-instate in the future) and keep the list intact. What it would lose would be the interactive and dynamic bits that coord and geogroup offer. It may be that the scottish list could also be done in the same way. Is that worth a go? (slight worry - are we allowed to use the Bing maps in that way?) RobinLeicester 17:05, 20 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

I've done something similar here, under Wales: a map showing the coordinates as markers. In the end it's the stuff for geocachers and satnavers which is needed; with AR coming quickly. Geogropup may be an unnecessary luxury! Let's go for your suggestion, Robin. Llywelyn2000 17:56, 20 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

I have got 5 more of these maps so far, to add when time allows. They use the fully open-source commons relief maps. The Location map+ template prepares them, but (quite apart from needing to crop the maps) using them live would be another way of overloading the page. I hope they work well as images. Can you have a good look at them to make sure I have not done anything silly with labelling etc. Thanks. RobinLeicester 01:28, 22 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Done that; they look cool! Well done. Llywelyn2000 01:34, 22 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Whaw! Well done RobinLeicester: the geotagging looks great. The left orientation is better, I think - with the images on the right as you've tried with the last batch. I hope you will help us again here in Wici-cy! Diolch i ti eto! Llywelyn2000 00:16, 25 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Well that has been fun (in a mind-numbing sort of way). I will leave you to play around with sizes and positions for the maps, and tweak any anomalies that crept through the reformat, if that is OK. I should probably be getting back to a few en ongoing works, but will have a play with your scottish mountains shortly, and we can see what can be usefully done with the SAMs and any translations you can get. (I have no experience of bots and the like, or of mass-produced articles. Should a conversation be initiated at en.wikiproject Wales on that?). RobinLeicester 00:49, 25 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Another thought- above each picture you could including a coord ref for each group (with the dim set high (eg 60km). This would a) give access to the geohack aerial photos etc, and b) make use of the interactive map - except that the list of wikipedias to find the nearby pages from, at least on my computer, isn't including cy. Maybe that is something to get someone to address via the coordinates project page. Example:- 52°27′58″N 3°47′02″W / 52.466°N 3.784°W / 52.466; -3.784 (Pumlumon). Cheers RobinLeicester 01:25, 25 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Great. I'll give your suggestions some thought over the weekend. Ymlaen! Llywelyn2000 06:00, 25 Chwefror 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

With the list split, is the plan to put in all the coord templates? They are all sitting on my spreadsheet waiting to go if wanted. (It may not be for a day or two).

I could then start rolling out the scottish ones. I am tempted to ask that, if I did the location maps as 'live' items, would you be able to turn them into jpegs and get them on commons etc. (I think the 'live' code should then be put somewhere accessible - but at least it would exist in the history) (I am pretty sure they would slow the page to a crawl if left live). RobinLeicester (sgwrs) 00:33, 10 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Hi Robin, yes I've split both Welsh and Scottish peaks. Can I help with the Welsh ones in any way? Yes, of course I'll do the map images; no probs. Could you add a couple of towns on the maps, so that we know where we are! It's a pity really we couldn't have a 'live feed' from Google maps as they do on webistes etc. It'll come. Mmany thanks, again. Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 06:03, 10 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Gogledd are done. I was sure by the time I was doing Eryri it would run out of steam but it fits with 150k of post-expand include spare. I noticed a couple of red links, which may be something I broke. If so, sorry, and I will let you sort them out. South to follow some time soon. RobinLeicester (sgwrs) 18:31, 11 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

De Cymru all done too. Bala a Trallwng was in both lists, and caused south to over-expand, so I removed it from that one. I assume it makes more sense in the Gogledd. For some reason Gogledd is not yet working with geogroup. I think its just an indexing lag. De is looking good. RobinLeicester (sgwrs) 21:53, 11 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

It turned out to be various individual problems with section names not matching. All sorted now, I think, including the overall one (which didn't like the 'cy:' bit). Well I think that now starts to do some justice to the sheer depth of detail on the individual articles. RobinLeicester (sgwrs) 23:42, 11 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Listing them in such an orderly manner with the maps as excellent visuals really does them justice. The red links were my problem - uncertainty about a few names. Thanks Robin for your great help. If you need anything translating, give me a buzz! Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 07:35, 12 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Mae Clwb Mynydda Cymru yn dolennu i'r rhestr hon, bellach:

1. Tudalen Flaen y wefan

1. Y Mynyddiadur

1. Dolennau allanol

ac ar ben hyn, ceir hysbysiad ar dudalen ‘Facebook’ Clwb Mynydda Cymru.

Ymunwch a'r Clwb! Llywelyn2000 (sgwrs) 11:04, 15 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]

Dyna wych (a diolch i tithau am y gwaith o'u creu yn y lle cyntaf). Sgwn i os ydyn't yn ymwybodol bod hawl gyda hnw ailddefnyddio cynnwys y Wicipedia ar gyfer eu Mynyddiadur artfaethedig? Falle gallwn feithrin partneriaeth gyda nhw ble mae modd cyfnewid cynnwys? Ddylwn ni ofyn iddynt roi popeth o dan drwydded Creative Commons? --Ben Bore (sgwrs) 13:50, 15 Mawrth 2012 (UTC)[ateb]