Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Monas

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Monas

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Each of these nominated images show the w:National Monument (Indonesia) in a non-de minimis manner (i.e., the monument is the main subject or the monument forms an important part, and removing it renders an image useless).

The monument was incepted in 1975, with two people involved in its design: Friedrich Silaban (died 1984) and R.M. Soedarsono (who was apparently living as of 2015, born 1933 and around 82 years old in 2015, as per this 2015 blog article about the architect) who died in 1989 (as per RaFaDa20631 below). Unfortunately, Indonesian law does not provide freedom of panorama for free commercial uses of images of such contemporary artworks by living or recently-deceased artists without the need of licensing permissions from them or their heirs of copyright holder-ship (e.g. grandchildren or estate).

The monument cannot fall under {{PD-IDGov}} as it was fulfilled through a design competition (at least according to enwiki), not by commission. A complete excerpt from enwiki article is below the list of files.

JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:21, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Excerpt from enwiki article regarding its inception

On 17 August 1954, a National Monument Committee was established and a design competition was held in 1955. This attracted 51 entries, but only one design, by Frederich Silaban, met any of the criteria determined by the committee, which included reflecting the character of Indonesia in a building capable of lasting for centuries. A repeat competition was held in 1960, but once again, none of the 136 entries met the criteria.

The chairman of the jury team then asked Silaban to show his design to Sukarno. However, Sukarno did not like the design as he wanted the monument to be in the form of a linga and yoni. Silaban was asked to design such a monument, but his design was for a monument so large that it would have been unaffordable given the economic conditions at the time.

Silaban refused to design a smaller monument, suggesting that construction be delayed until the Indonesian economy improved. Sukarno then asked the architect R.M. Soedarsono to continue with the design. Soedarsono incorporated the numbers 17, 8 and 45, representing the 17 August 1945 Proclamation of Indonesian Independence, in the dimensions of the monument.

Note that some of the uploaders may not be notified due to an error during VisualFileChange use: -- NO TASK DESCR. FOR mdUploaderNotified PLEASE ADD IT -- ##### API request failed (protectedpage): This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions. Help: You can request an edit to 'User talk:SieBot' at COM:AN (the Administrators’ noticeboard). at Sat, 27 Nov 2021 04:21:27 GMT served by mw1408. _ JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:26, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Checked talk pages of all uploaders (except bots), and all have been notified. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep File:500px photo (39465468).jpeg as {{De minimis}}. Eventually delete the uncropped version.-- Darwin Ahoy! 18:28, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @DarwIn: for the cropping.  Agree to this uncropped version. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:44, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


 Keep File:MonasConstruction2.jpg - image is PD as per description on page. Davidelit (talk) 04:10, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Davidelit: government's public domain license does not magically deny artist's copyright (at least in the Philippine case). Or is that a fact in Indonesia; that artists' copyrights can be overwritten by government's public domain licensing in case of government's images of their monuments or sculptures? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@JWilz12345: Your sarcasm is unnecessary. I am simply trying to defend the Indonesia project against your relentless attacks. You are clearly determined to delete as many images as possible using your interpretation of foreign laws as justification, and you cannot blame people for fighting back. Davidelit (talk) 00:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Davidelit: why don't you try to ask for copyright law reforms? Like what we here in the Philippines are doing (monitoring for insertion of FOP in our copyright law)? It is very absurd to complain: the French have lost hundreds of thousands of images because of their no commercial FOP, but most of them don't complain. Unlike the Indonesian situation where around thousands were deleted, but there is no indication of an attempt to reform the exceptions/limitations to copyright law. If the Indonesian government or artists do not agree to commercial FOP, then there is nothing to do. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not Indonesian and therefore cannot ask for copyright law reforms. Your interpretation of the law has resulted in less information about Indonesia being available, but it looks like you win this round. Davidelit (talk) 04:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep sebelumnya saya minta maaf karena menulis dalam bahasa indonesia, saya berpendapat foto-foto ini tidak melanggar hak cipta. Karena dalam pasal 43 (d) Undang-undang nomor 28 tahun 2014 tentang hak cipta memperbolehkan penyebaran konten asalkan non-komersial. Opini lebih lanjut dapat dilihat dalam jurnal balitbangham Empat Tilda (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Google Translate:I apologize in advance for writing in Indonesian, I think these photos do not violate copyright. Because article 43 (d) of Law number 28 of 2014 concerning copyright allows the distribution of content as long as it is non-commercial. Further opinions can be found in the journal balitbangham
@Empat Tilda: Non-commercial licensing is prohibited on Commons = COM:Licensing. See also: 2018 statement by Creative Commons Indonesia, affirming no Commons-acceptable freedom of panorama from Indonesia. Perhaps a change/reform in copyright law will solve all things once and for all, as alluded in a suggestion on the Creative Commons Indonesia statement. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 17:37, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note that if Commons is going to accept non-commercial freedom of panorama rights (e.g. of Indonesia), then this will not conform to Wikimedia Commons' mission of providing media files "that are not subject to copyright restrictions which would prevent them being used by anyone, anytime, for any purpose" (ref. Commons:Licensing). The policy page adds: "Wikimedia Commons does not accept fair use justifications.... Media licensed exclusively under non-commercial only licenses (like CC BY-NC-SA) are not accepted either." JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:42, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep Extreme case of flawed interpretation of foreign law by proposer. dwadieff ✉ 01:45, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is flawed about this interpretation? --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HyperGaruda: see Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:An-Nur_Great_Mosque. dwadieff ✉ 17:57, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: what I read there, is that Commons says there is no FoP, while you say the law is not conclusive on that matter, correct? Our precautionary principle comes into play in case of doubt/inconclusiveness, favouring deletion in such a case. However, Monas presents more complexity in the form of the exemption for government works, though even that exemption ({{PD-IDGov}}) is now under discussion. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Question to JWilz12345: how is submission through a design competition or via commission relevant to PD-IDGov? In either case it is executed by or on behalf of the government. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep File:Monas lit blue for 2019 Autism Day.jpg after cropping.  Delete those who fails de minimis--A1Cafel (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@HyperGaruda: it might be, though one issue now is the designer of the current design (R.M. Soedarsono), per enwiki: "Silaban refused to design a smaller monument, suggesting that construction be delayed until the Indonesian economy improved. Sukarno then asked the architect R.M. Soedarsono to continue with the design. Soedarsono incorporated the numbers 17, 8 and 45, representing the 17 August 1945 Proclamation of Indonesian Independence, in the dimensions of the monument." So it is assumed that the current design is not of Silaban's (which emerged via a design competition), but from R.M. Soedarsono. As per RaFaDa20631 above, Soedarsono's son Anton is claiming that Monas was his father's own work. Unsure if his relationship with Sukarno constitites "on behalf of the government". JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to Arsonal's response further below, that relationship can indeed be interpreted as "on behalf of the government". --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:59, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One attention: {{PD-IDGov}} is currently being discussed for deletion: Commons:Deletion requests/Template:PD-IDGov. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:06, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Question Adding to question above. Article 43 of the Law of The Republic of Indonesia Number 28 of 2014 on Copyright states that Any Publication, Distribution, Communication, and/or Reproduction executed by or on behalf of the government, unless stated to be protected by laws and regulations, a statement to such Works, or when Publication, Distribution, Communication, and/or Reproduction to such Works are made. Given that the design and construction was executed as part of a government-sponsored competition, and there is no record that the National Monument is protected by any sort of copyright regulation, how does this fail criteria for inclusion? Arsonal (talk) 02:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Arsonal You might be interested in Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2021/01#Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:An-Nur_Great_Mosque_should_be_focused_by_professors_in_this_grey_area Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing me to the Village Pump conversation @Liuxinyu970226. I also referenced the FOP statement by Creative Commons Indonesia while doing my own check. I did notice, however, that the Village Pump conversation didn't address clause 43(b) for works executed on behalf of the government (which I believe the National Monument is, since Soedarsono designed it on Sukarno's request as then-President of Indonesia). CC Indonesia also takes the position that 43(b) is evaluated separately from the commercial use clause of 43(d): "Pada huruf d, disebutkan bahwa pembuatan dan penyebarluasan ciptaan secara daring, [In letter d, it is stated that the creation and dissemination of works online,] selain ciptaan yang dimaksud dalam huruf b, dapat dilaksanakan, [other than the works referred to in letter b, can be carried out,] bahkan dalam kepentingan komersial atau disediakan untuk digunakan kembali dalam kepentingan komersial secara langsung asal pihak pencipta atau pemegang hak cipta tidak keberatan terhadap hal tersebut. [even for commercial purposes or provided for direct commercial use as long as the creator or copyright holder does not object to this.]" Arsonal (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment Well, this just took an unexpected turn. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:59, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: 1) the monument has been built by commission of the Indonesian Government (even the design competition was made by the Government), and 2) per Arsonal, State owned works are free to reproduce. Ruthven (msg) 09:25, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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