Talk:Q15991159

I propose that in time, this class of battle should be deleted, and that its instances should instead be changed into instances of Battle, or other and more informative sub classes of that. Some reasons for this are: 'Middle ages battle' indicate a historical period and not a 'kind' of battle per se, qualitatively different from 'battle'. The information that a battle is of this type will not contribute much, if anything, to the item if its time is already known. Also, the definition of the middle ages as such is under debate, and it is unclear what it really means with respect to the history of many parts of the world. And in practice, this class seems often to be used mistakenly in, for instance, ancient battles. Therefore, as a starting point, it would be nice if a bot could be set to change instances of this class into instances of Battle, if the item in question already has a Start time, End time or Point in time. Fred Johansen (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Johansen.fred: I don't think it's a good idea to delete the item. It's at least a hint that roughly it was a middle ages battle, and it's pretty useful for people who does not know exactly the date of the battle in first approximation. Classes, see Help:Classification, can be used to class wrt. several axis, including time and period. Imho it's a pretty useful property and it would be a mistake to be too tight about there uses. The ability to mix intensional definition (Q1026899)    (a middle age battle is a battle that occured during the middle age and extensional definition (Q5421961)    (I don't know the date but I this this is a middle age battle, so I'll assert the membership of this item to the class) is a imho greatly useful property (even if it's open to discussion : Adopt_Help:Classification_as_an_official_help_page). See this as a class that needs periodical cleaning at least ... And with a query like Wikidata Query this removes nothing to keep this class. So I think it's both useful for some usecases and workflows and manageable to keep it. TomT0m ^(talk) 09:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer we use date properties to sort battles by era, as it offers a more precise data and allow to build a query with custom ranges. Middle Age doesn't start at the same year in each region of the world, so I concour with Fred Johansen, we should delete that. --Dereckson (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, it has been applied without any care or proofing, as shown by this diff (an human), this one (a war) or this one (a castle).--Dereckson (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dereckson: You can do both. Actually a broad classification is interesting because more refined than raw data, which gives more freedom than harsh date to define a period of time, things are more blurry in reality. And yes, mistakes happen (I used something like autolist from a wikipedia category to do that). author  TomT0m / talk page 07:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The value used in instance of must be generic enough to make sense, ie explaining what the quintessence, the essential nature of the element is. As you assign Middle-Age in the essence of the element, you impose to us your non neutral interpretation of what the Middle Age is, you impose to us the essence of these battle is chronological and complicates the life of maintenance and users querying information without providing them any advantage (again, your classification in Middle Age is a POV). --Dereckson (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dereckson: What is quitessential or not would be a non neutral point of view, that's why I would (and must) rely on more precise and well defined stuffs, that means stuffs that can be defined at all. This means we rely on definitions of the middle age, of a battle and so on. If an historian defined middle aged battle some way, then any battle that meets the criteria he define will go into this class. If another historian has a different one, we can have another item for battles meeting the criteria. And we can source the definitions. This is way more POV neutral that to decide whatever is "quintessential" :) author  TomT0m / talk page 12:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A quick search in google shows this in the results : http://www.histoire-france.net/moyen/guerre which even suggest we can classify more precisely the battles in the middle age, so I would not say this is not impossible. All depends on the level of details we want to go or can go seriously. author  TomT0m / talk page 12:29, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with Dereckson. -Ash Crow (talk) 00:32, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]