Talk:Primus

Organization

I think this needs reformating. Right now all entries focus on the current Primus/Unicron backstory, even the one on the Marvel Comics where the backstory was notably different (and had several versions in itself).

Do we want to focus the whole entry on the current multiversal paradigm and add previous Primus backstory as continuity notes? Or do we want to tell each version of the story as its own section of the entry? ZacWilliam 19:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Considering the current Primus' backstory IS all the previous Primus material all streamlined into one entity, I think we should open with that. Otherwise, we're going to have two nigh-identical halves in the same article, one half being a retelling of the other half. It is a retcon, after all, of which Transformers has many, and we have accepted previous ones pretty easily. (IE, Vector Sigma vs. Quints creating the TFs in the cartoon.) Of course, we should note, as it does now, that this is the current "dogma" of sorts, that inconsistencies exist -- and in the subchapters for each continuity, we should tell it as it was. --ItsWalky 21:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Where should the stuff about him creating the Covenant of Primus (the group) before Cybertron go? Universe cause it's botcon related? or near the begining with the general stuff? Also, Timelines stuff happening at the same time as Cybertron seperate entry or together with the general Cybertron one?

I would say the Covenant of Primus (the 12) should go in Universe. The 13 (which includes Vector Prime and The Fallen) should probably be added somewhere in the beginning. --ItsWalky 23:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The Fan Club comic

For the last time, the comic in the fan club magazine is a CYBERTRON comic. It says so at the top of every issue. It's not labelled Timelines. It takes place in the Unicron Trilogy universe. --ItsWalky 03:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Primus sucked??

Says under "War of the Ballance" that Primus was sucked into the black hole limbo with Unicron. Did I miss something or shouldn't that be the Fallen was sucked in with Uni, not Primus? --ZacWilliam 21:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Corrected. -King Starscream 14:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The God of the Cybertrons

In the second episode of Beast Wars Neo, Big Convoy and crew head to planet God Bless to look for an Angolmois capsule. The effect of this particular capsule is that anyone who comes near it "sees" their god, which the Destrons use to exploit the cat-people of God Bless into making oil for them. When Big Convoy and co. come into the picture, they see an illusion of "the God of the Cybertrons"... who is a gigantic Great Convoy.

Great God!

I'm wondering where this would go. At the moment, I'm thinking in Primus's Trivia section, but I'd like some opinions. They don't call it Primus by name, but Beast Wars itself had references to Primus... of course, I don't know how Japan handled those. --Monzo 14:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd put that in "God of the Autobots". Primus didn't exist in Japanese continuity until Energon, so it'd be horribly misleading to put it in this article. It's certainly possible for other Cybertronian gods to co-exist with Primus. Interrobang 23:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

And we need a "God Bless" article, dammit. Interrobang 23:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object to placing a GotC article in God of the Auobots, since as used it would almost certainly be better translated as 'God of the Maximals.' Japan's obnoxious decision to give the new factions the old names contributes to their marginalization of the con/pred changeover. BW-era is NOT JUST G!-ERA LATER IN THE FUTURE. THERE HAVE BEEN FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES, RRAUGH, DERIK SMASH!-Derik 00:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

To be perfectly correct (and to avoid big arguments like Talk: Lio Convoy, I'd say we go with the whacky name and have it at "God of the Cybertrons". It's a Japanese-only concept. We might as well give it the appropriate Japanese name.--Rosicrucian 00:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

That seems wise. -Derik 02:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the thing is - as I vaguely suggested at - Beast Wars had references to Primus, and Beast Wars was dubbed into Japanese, ergo there may have been references to Primus in J-BW. The problem is, with the wacky dub of the show, I have no way of knowing if those references were kept. A quick search of the scripts indicates that there were references to Primus in Bad Spark, Transmutate and Agenda 3, at least, which would have all been part of Metals. I guess I can try poking around Japanese TF pages for Metals episode reviews... --Monzo 00:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if they were kept, they wouldn't have reached Japan until a year after Neo ended. If the Neo writers were aware of/'doing' Primus, he would have appeared in some context with Unicron, not a 1-off gag image generated by the unaware-of-Unicron Predacons.

Treat it liek what it was intended to be and what it was-- something to intended to insult the Maximals. A Maximal elder dressed in clothes even more Ornate than Great Convoy's proclaiming hismelf their god. The Ask Big Convoy thing mentions the elders are basically ministers of Cybertron's theology-- the preds are MOCKING the ir leaders, values and way of life. Calling it anything else requires distorting the scene into something it's not.

Besides- are you honestly tryign to say that Primus is only god of the Autobots/Maximals? Not the Predacons? That all Predacons are satanists? -Derik 02:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

... what? Even though the Preds used the illusion of the Cat God of God Bless to get oil from the, uh, God Blessians, I don't think they had any control over what people saw at all. The Maximals sure didn't react as if it were a parody - they weren't even aware that it was an illusion. The recruits were figuratively wetting themselves because they thought they were seeing their God.

Ages ago, I made sound clips from the episode and had a native speaker listen to them, trying to figure out the nature of the God of the Cybertrons and the Angolmois capsule. This is what I got back:

Saberback: "Ah, Lord Magmatron, I see that there's no fooling you. These Angolmois capsules have the ability to make corporeal the secret desires and wishes of living beings. On this planet, GodBless, the god envisioned by the natives has created this planetoid. And for the Cybertrons, created a god in the form of the legendary Convoy."

False God: "I am the God of the Cybertrons. I say unto you, this planet is the planet of the Gods, sacred and holy to us. You must not approach it."

Big Convoy: "So that is the God of the Cybertrons..."

Finally, Longrack muses that "to the GodBless-ians, it looked like a Giant Cat God, and to the Cybertrons, it appeared to be a Transformer God. Therefore, it must have been an illusion with no actual physical presence".

Also, he's not more ornate than Great Convoy - he's DRAWN AS Great Convoy. That B&W drawing in the corner of my compilation pic is Great Convoy's character model, and they're clearly the same dude.

Of course, I had completely forgotten that "created a god in the form of the legendary Convoy" part, which raises a whole different batch of questions. --Monzo 02:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say create an article at "God of the Cybertrons", and mention in the Primus trivia something like "He's not the only Transformer 'god', there's also this BWNeo guy of unknown significance." --Steve-o 05:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Kiss Play Primus a ringer?

I think we should have a note that the Primus in the Kiss Play continuity (and hence the unified JTF universe) is VERY, VERY different than the one we see everywhere else. If I understand things right he's mearly Primacron's assistant in his new Oracle/Vector Sigma form and NOT any sort of real actual god or pan-dimensional cosmic being. Correct?--ZacWilliam 00:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

He identifies himself as the real god of the Transformers, and displays a cosmic form and pan-dimensional powers in keeping with that. He's also identified as being the G1 dimension's version of the guy from Cybertron/Galaxy Force. I think we just have to accept that in the shoehorned JG1 continuity, he can be a god AND Primacron's assistant Oracle AND Vector Sigma, all at the same time and/or consecutively. --Swift 01:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

'S funny, I'm fine with him being both God-Primus and Vector Sigma and all, that works ok, but when you also make him Primacron's assistant it kinda falls apart for me. Primacron's assistant was an ugly robotic munkey creature that did the whim of a even uglier mad scientist, was blown up by Unicron, survived only in a shell that was latter captured, disected, altered, and enslaved by the Quintessons. Sure, you can say Primus incarnated as the ugly munkey-lizard robot and served Primacron and was destroyed and enslaved and all as part of some greater plan but it's a HUGE stretch. (I know, I know the whole unified timeline is to begin with). The "WHY?" of it all just boggles the mind. Ah well, I just think a note about how that whole retcon fits together very shakily wouldn't be out of place. --ZacWilliam 02:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Japan's G1 timeline has more plotholes than Cybertron, so we should just blame it on the singularity. Dynamus Prime 19:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Primus in Animated

• http://twitter.com/DerrickJWyatt/status/1436601253
• http://twitter.com/GeneralTekno/status/1436613378
• http://twitter.com/DerrickJWyatt/status/1436621805

*gives a little cheer, then coughs and looks innocent* --Jeysie 01:34, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

He's also said G1 Ratbat doesn't talk. Derrick Wyatt doesn't get to decide things on his Twitter, despite how often he is awesome. --ItsWalky 02:02, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

He's just balancing out the awesome, with periods of notness.--Rosicrucian^Talk 02:37, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

...that's why I put it on the talk page instead of in the article. I'm still cheered by the fact that at least one Animated person wants that retcon to die a horrible death. :3 --Jeysie 02:47, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

At best, this just means there are no current plans to feature Primus in Animated. He's there, because Cybertron is there, but the Cybertronians are unaware of his presence, which can really be said to be the status quo in most universes.--Rosicrucian^Talk 11:54, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Given the established meta-omnipresence of the Primus retcon, I don't think it would be possible for anyone in a new continuity to re-retcon it out of existence and conclusively create a reality where it wasn't "true." You can't prove a negative--can't prove that Primus wasn't there--especially when dealing with supernatural entities that waltz between dimensions, and when it is also already established that continuities claiming "nope, no god here!" (i.e. early Marvel, Shattered Glass) are simply wrong. And while I, too, love Derrick Wyatt, author intent doesn't become any more realized or significant just because the author happens to be cool. --Thylacine 2000 14:02, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

I dunno, if an author says something isn't in their story, I take them at face value, instead of going, "Well, even though it's your story, I know better than you do what's actually in it." (After all, if the Allspark is what makes the TFs, and if it turns out that the Allspark (and presumably Cybertron) aren't Primus, that kind of renders Primus pointless/useless at best, yes?)

I just am aware that one, Isenburg is the main writer, not Wyatt, and two, Hasbro might make them use Primus anyway at some point. Still makes me happy, though.

(Although I'm still a bit cross-eyed at the thought of third-party fanclub material ever being allowed to overwrite the mainstream TF material it's not a part of. Marvel was retconned within the Marvel series itself by a mainstream pro, and I get the feeling that it's fully intended that Primus really is in Shattered Glass already and the TFs just don't know about it yet. Not the same at all.) --Jeysie 21:47, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

(And here I thought Tramp was the only one who bought into that "Well, even if the author says Primus isn't in the story, it just means he doesn't have an active part" stuff. -_-) --Jeysie 21:59, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

I've had trouble with the prominence of the fanclub stuff too. The G1 & Beast Wars cartoons were seen by millions, the Marvel Comic read by tens & hundreds of thousands... and the fanclub stuff which has an audience of hundreds overrides both to the point of being atop the bios of various characters? This is before the "decision" that the movie Fallen is the "same" as the DW Fallen, when there's an order of magnitude difference along the lines of a MILLION TIMES between the audience of the fanclub stuff that determined this and the movie itself. - SanityOrMadness 22:02, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

"fanclub stuff," huh? Dude, just today we added a bit to the universal stream page that was from Takara's Alternity Convoy bio. This stuff isn't just contained within members-only material. Since this whole concept started, it's been all over. It's been on toy packaging, such as Titanium Unicron's. It's been integrated into Takara's "World of Transformers" website. The "Original 13" was something that pretty much started in BotCon text stories, and now they're making a damn live-action blockbuster movie about it. This "angle" of the mythos is much, much larger than the club's influence, and has been for years. It's not "just fanclub stuff." That's like saying that Primus is "just Marvel UK stuff," even though we got a toy of him a few years ago and a television series centered around him. The cat's already out of the bag, or whatever.

And second, I really don't want to start throwing stuff out of the wiki just because it wasn't seen by enough people. "Prominence" is relative, and it's impossible to judge, and so that's a terrible reason to cast out information. This wiki EXISTS so that the small things get noticed. If not, we should just put up a page about what Optimus Prime did in the cartoon and call it a day and lock the damn thing forever. Is Chip Chase less canon because he didn't show up in as many episodes as Bumblebee, meaning less people saw him on tv? That's a bad road to go down. --ItsWalky 01:00, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Who said anything about throwing things out? Just that, if we're OK with mentioning that previous information was retconned due to that fanclub retcon, I don't see why we would ever give the fanclub retcon special treatment by not mentioning if any newer continuities ever explicitly omitted Primus and Unicron, but instead resorting to silly "Well, Primus and Unicron still exist somehow anyway, they just serve no purpose whatsoever except meeting technical requirements" explanations. --Jeysie 02:51, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

How many people owned BW Sonar? Probably a few hundred thousand. How many people read Wreckers and Apelinq's Journals? At least two orders of magnitude fewer than that. Yet Sonar is still female. It's overwhelmingly likely that Hasbro never intended this, that the designers would have casually used "him" or just "it" during their progress meetings, but still, there she is. Information is information. --Thylacine 2000 22:20, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

And this also kind of gets into how the wiki treats continuity. It can be summed up as "everything fits, unless it doesn't." If a statement, no matter how broad and sweeping, isn't demonstrably contradicted by the fiction of a setting, then that statement still stands. If it does not, then that posits one or more splinter continuities, microcontinuities, etc. So in this case, the "Primus is in every universe, but he's slumbering within Cybertron in most of them, and most Transformers are unaware of his existence" is a statement which has not been contradicted by an existing continuity. So it's "true" for our purposes. There isn't a big glowing godly hand in all these continuities, but there's at least a planet Cybertron, and thus it hasn't been contradicted. He can be assumed to be there, because we have no evidence against it. So author intent is nice to give perspective at times, but only what's actually in the fiction counts.--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:27, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Well, except that it was outright contradicted in the Sunbow cartoon, and Furman has said if Primus is in the IDWverse, he's not a god at least, and if Isenberg backs up Wyatt that Primus isn't in Animated, etc...

I guess the problem is, our "everything is canon" bit is based on the fact that usually continuities don't try overwriting other continuities. But that sort of fanclub retcon actually makes some parts of other continuities non-canon.

(Of course, the upcoming IDW series about the 13 might produce the exact same problem, but at least that'll be mainstream fiction...) --Jeysie 22:39, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Dude, the Sunbow cartoon contradicted itself on the origins of Transformers. Vector Sigma was originally the "before yadda yadda, I yadda yadda." And then new people came along and retconned it in the third season to be the Quintessons. It was the same in the Marvel comics. First the origins were natural-evolution; later, a different writer made it Primus, which itself was a retcon of the Quintessons. Modern-day retcons are really no different. There's no magical year in the past in which it became "nope, new additions don't count." Those changes will stay until they're retconned again. Retcons are eternal. It doesn't mean they're any less true in the interim. --ItsWalky 00:50, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Like I said above, that's different. The Sunbow series retconned itself. The Marvel series retconned itself. Etc. A storyline retconning itself is fine (well, in a technical sense).

The problem is when you've got a storyline trying to retcon a totally different storyline. IOW, you've got one continuity (main, sub, micro, whatever) busy rendering parts of other continuities non-canon. Thus mucking up our "everything is canon" policy.

While that isn't necessarily a problem here (yet), it does make me wonder what we'll do if The 13 does end up throwing any wrenches into things. --Jeysie 02:51, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

can we change the caption under the energon section

the 1st picture in that would go great with a code geass joke 74.125.154.85 10:31, 15 July 2010 (EDT)

Another unintentional Primus

There is an artificial planet called Primus in Ben 10: Alien Force, the He-Man one may be unintentional, but this one seems like a bad joke that is borderline author infringement.-ACIDSTORM92 23:29, 26 August 2010 (EDT)

Don't waste our time. --ItsWalky 23:50, 26 August 2010 (EDT)

Don't worry, not wasting any time, since I wasn´t going to post it in the main page anyway, just saying that that(un)inentended reference came out as extremely ridiculous. And why is that part from He-man noted, it makes no sense to the wiki and offers no real information, in my opinion, it must be deleted, I just wanted to test my theory by talking about the worst use of the name Primus so I could prove my point. Seriously, there is a famous band named Primus, it was even refered in Family Guy, heck, maybe Furman used the name as a reference, so give me a good reason for why He-Man is there. It´s like when a guy posted something about Omega Supreme being in a Chinese movie, it didn´t have anything to do with Transformers and it was deleted.-ACIDSTORM92 18:46, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

Or how about that it's an OLD LATIN WORD that was the basis for all the other uses, from Transformers to He-Man to the band. - Cattleprod 19:00, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

That's what I mean, delete that He-Man part, for that very reason. Thank you.-ACIDSTORM92 19:10, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

Power Rangers Reference 2

Alpha's fitting for the caption, cos it's a reference to Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, which featured the Big Good's assistant as... Alpha. huh 66.82.9.57 19:28, 19 August 2011 (EDT)

Aligned continuity

So according to Hasbro The Prime Universe is in a seperate multiverse from the other Transformers Universes. So does that mean the Primus in the novels, games, and cartoon related to the Aligned continuity is a different Primus to the original appearances?Mojotron 21:44, 16 February 2012 (EST)

Yes. As a wiki we've kinda been purposely avoiding/ignoring that so we didn't have to revise a ton of pages (this, the 13, Unicron). But technically you are correct, by our rules all aligned stuff should be split off these guys for their own seperate pages. --76.28.76.206 21:55, 16 February 2012 (EST)

I'd think it best to keep Primus and Unicron as single pages anyway, but I the 13ers really might need to be split at some point. --KilMichaelMcC 22:02, 16 February 2012 (EST)

I don't know according to Hasbro they're seperate characters and all the stuff on this page does not apply to Aligned Primus. Their Unicron already seems fairly different in story. If we keep the pages the together without some major warnings and explanations we risk really miss informing folks when 90% of what the article says is not true for the aligned being that's a very different being. Just a thought. --76.28.76.206 22:59, 16 February 2012 (EST)

What we could do is put a note on the Aligned section (like with The Fallen) about this Primus being factually different from the Primus you know from previous apperancesMojotron 20:56, 17 February 2012 (EST)

R.U.R. Rossum’s Universal Robots Reference

In the play R.U.R., Primus is the name of the robot that will become his race's Adam. He is the first of his kind followed by Helen his Eve. Together they set out to create the a new race of robots after the exstinction of the human race. The name Primus for the warrior god of Cybertron could be a reference to this Primus. Since the play R.U.R. was the first to introduce the word "robot" into the English language, it is fitting that the robot god that created the Cybertronian race should be named after Primus. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Allora217 (talk • contribs).

More info please

Ok, simply put, could someone put the page, or pages (as in like the page numbers, such as "Transformers: The Ultimate Guide Pg.?", or something like that) that the info here is mentioned: "In planet mode, he is considerably more detailed than Armada Unicron, with visible cities, including Iacon, based upon its appearance in the DK Publishing book, Transformers: The Ultimate Guide, and Kaon, specifically Kolkular, as seen in The War Within."? That way those that have the books in question will know where to look, and maybe have a picture or pictures that point the cities out and put it in the notes or something, so those who have the Cybertron toy, but not the books, will be able to know which city is which. Well, that, and so those with neither, can have "proof", so to speak. However, mostly for the first two, as I have the Cybertron toy, but not the books, and I don't know which city is which, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one with this issue. As well as maybe put some info somewhere on the page that confirms whether or not that this is just fan theory that he has cities based on their appearance elsewhere. Beetle Bug (talk) 00:33, 30 July 2021 (EDT)

We don't list page numbers for things, that's not what the wiki is for. The wiki is here to summarize info, not tell you where to look, that is up to the reader. Also, if you were paying any attention, you'd notice that the details on the toys are already listed on the respective city pages under the "Toys" header. Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2021 (EDT)

Oh, so they are. Oops. Beetle Bug (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2021 (EDT)