Property talk:P9970
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Shisma in topic Appropriate for Japanese counter word (Q2116774)?
Documentation
predicate for
action that is described by this verb/predicate
action that is described by this verb/predicate
| Represents | predicate (Q179080) | |||||||||
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| Data type | Item | |||||||||
| Example | no label (L579878-S1) → meeting (Q2761147) no label (L185-S1) → visual perception (Q162668) no label (L43036-S1) → swimming (Q6388) no label (L308430-S1) → walking (Q6537379) | |||||||||
| See also | item for this sense (P5137), has semantic argument (P9971) | |||||||||
| Lists |
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| Proposal discussion | Proposal discussion | |||||||||
| Current uses |
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| Search for values |
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Allowed entity types are Wikibase sense (Q54285715): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Entity types
Conflicts with “subclass of (P279)”: this property must not be used with the listed properties and values. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Conflicts with P279, search, SPARQL
Lexical category: verb (Q24905): this property should only be applied to lexemes with these lexical categories
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#lexical category
Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303). List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P9970#Scope, SPARQL
Useful link : Wikidata:Lexicographical data/Statistics/indirect translations (predicates)
Are qualifiers possible?
editHi,
@Mahir256, ArthurPSmith, So9q, Jsamwrites, 99of9: is it ok to use a qualifier to get a more precise value? kistina (L40606) is a Breton verb meaning "to collect, gather chestnut" so I used :
I'm not entirely happy with of (P642) but what do you think of the general idea and would you have a better idea for the qualifier? or a better way to do it?
For the record, we have a lot of verbs like that in Breton (pesketa (L42122) being an other one where I didn't need a qualifier as we have fishing (Q14373) but I can't possibily create an item for every objects that can be collected).
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- @VIGNERON: I also like the idea of using qualifiers here, but am also not confident that of (P642) is the right one (indeed, there should be a trend of discouraging extra uses of P642 in favor of more specific properties or formulations). For now I suppose it can be left, but once another use of "of" to indicate something other than "the patient of (or thing affected by) an action" appears, better qualifiers might need to be proposed. (I see that the -a suffix represents "collecting", but do not know how productive that suffix is in Breton.) Mahir256 (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- @VIGNERON Interesting example. I would have also used of (P642), but there was a post by @Lucas Werkmeister some months ago, where it was suggested to rethink its use, with some interesting examples. We may need a new property qualifier for this, but until then of (P642) could be used. John Samuel (talk) 16:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Mahir256, Jsamwrites: I think my broader question is also "what qualifiers should be allowed?", do you have any ideas of others cases where qualifiers could be useful? And like Lucas, I consider P642 to be harmful but here, I don't really see a better property (maybe applies to part, aspect, or form (P518)? but it's also very general, maybe it could apply for other situation).
- Mahir: good question, I looked and the productivity seems to be very low (much lower than I imagine) and can be "collecting" in a very broad sense: boueta is "to feed" (close but less general than "to collect food") and "merc'heta/paotreta" is "to flirt/seduce" (respectively with girls and boys, we maybe need a qualifier there too ; and a bit like the idiom "to pick up"), I'll try to find them all as an exercise :P (wikt:br:Rummad:-a has 58 pages but some are strange and some are missing).
- Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- (For completeness, I should note that I later suggested to mark this verb as a hyperonym of "dustum", a verb meaning "collect, gather" more generally, and to set has semantic argument (P9971) topic (Q22338337) with qualifier object sense (P5980) "kistin", the word for "chestnut". The shifting of the specifics of hyperonyms to thematic relations will likely be more flexible for many situations than the introduction of completely new qualifiers to this property.) Mahir256 (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Appropriate for Japanese counter word (Q2116774)?
edit@Mahir256, ArthurPSmith, So9q, Jsamwrites, 99of9:
歳/さい (L619048) is a suffix to be added to a number to indicate the number is the age of a person. Is predicate for (P9970) years old (Q24564698) appropriate here? New property? 🤷 --Shisma (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Shisma: Can you give an example of how it is used? Does its presence in a sentence preclude the use of another verb or verb phrase in that sentence? Mahir256 (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- there is one example in the lexeme and The english wikipedia article has examples. I can't answer your question. Let's forward it to
Notified participants of WikiProject Japan – Shisma (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Shisma: If this is like any other classifier, then my instinct is to say that this property does not belong on it. Mahir256 (talk) 18:59, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- but would you agree that invalid ID (L619048#S1) should be somehow connected to years old (Q24564698)? – Shisma (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Shisma: Sure, I can see this being useful. Perhaps a new property should be created to establish such a link? (I'd support its proposal.) Mahir256 (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- well maybe item for this sense (P5137) would be appropriate? --Shisma (talk) 09:08, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Shisma: Sure, I can see this being useful. Perhaps a new property should be created to establish such a link? (I'd support its proposal.) Mahir256 (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- but would you agree that invalid ID (L619048#S1) should be somehow connected to years old (Q24564698)? – Shisma (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Shisma: If this is like any other classifier, then my instinct is to say that this property does not belong on it. Mahir256 (talk) 18:59, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- there is one example in the lexeme and The english wikipedia article has examples. I can't answer your question. Let's forward it to
As you can see, "歳"or"才" is used as a unit of age, and 10 years old is read as "ju-sai". In kanji, it can also be read as "toshi", but with some exceptions, it is read as "sai" when expressing age.--Araisyohei (talk) 09:18, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- should those be separate lexemes connected with homograph lexeme (P5402)? 🤷 – Shisma (talk) 09:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)