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 | On 5 December 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to VAZ-2105. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Old talk
editOn the photos it not VAZ-2101, but VAZ-2105 or VAZ-2107. I tell you for sure. See ru:Изображение:Lada 2101.jpg for real ВАЗ-2101 ("Kopeyka"). 87.245.140.252 11:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
1st image seems to be really VAZ-2102; (if I see it in Russia, I would say it is; but maybe it was sold abroad with other name KonstKaras (talk) 18:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
on the pfhotos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lada_Riva.JPG - 2104
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Riva.jpeg - 2107
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lada_Riva_estate_Cambridge.jpg - 2102
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lada_Riva_1500_Estate.JPG - 2104 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.189.134.202 (talk) 05:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F088839-0023,_Berlin-Friedrichshain,_Geparkter_PKW_Lada.jpg - 2101 KonstKaras (talk) 20:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
the name
editVAZ-2104 VAZ-2105 VAZ-2107 known in the western Europe under the trade mark LADA or LADA Riva.
VAZ-2101 and VAZ-2102 is russian version Fiat 124.
VAZ-2103 known in the western Europe under the trade mark Zhiguli.
VAZ-2106 not delivered on the European market
VAZ-2108 VAZ-2109 known in the western Europe under the trade mark LADA Samara.
LADA is god in russian neopaganism heh.Gnomsovet (talk) 21:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
afaik lada riva is the name known in UK (or western europe). shouldn't we change it to its original name(vaz 2107)?--Infestor (talk) 13:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- I dont know where the Riva name was used, any countries outside UK? --— Typ932T | C 07:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I've only ever seen the Riva name on later releases of this car, for a long time they were either not model badged, badged as 1500, and the estates as the Lada combi. 86.4.152.167 (talk) 18:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
If you want the car, but you not have money in Russia, you buy Lada. One Lada - 8000$!(2009, 14 of April ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.126.37.230 (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- New VAZ 2107 160.000 rouble or 5000$ cheap and shit ;)1.06.09Gnomsovet (talk) 21:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which countries the Riva name was used, I mean is the article named with right name? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles/Conventions#Names --Typ932 T·C 09:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Market niche / Competitors
editArticle currently states:
"Its spartan interiors, dated styling and outdated mechanicals meant that it was never actually aimed at buyers of market leaders' similar-sized products such as the Ford Sierra, Vauxhall Cavalier and Austin Montego. It was a competitor for fellow East European and Far Eastern cars from makes like Skoda, Yugo, FSO and Hyundai."
However, I don't think thats really the full accurate picture. Those other eastern vehicles were relatively lightweight and smaller offerings, not really equivalents. The 2 big strengths of the Riva were that a) it was shamelessly cheap b) it was an exceptionally tough workhorse.
Rather I think Lada Rivas had no real equivalents elsewhere in the 1980s UK car market, and captured a few market niches:
- the bottom few percent of the the market that would otherwise have gone to the more mainstream western manufacturers, eg Ford.
- They were relatively popular with senior citizens, who often cared not one jot about their dated appearance, mechanics and the Lada jokes. The upright seating posture and high seat position made getting out of the car much easier for the infirm than western cars.
- they also took a significant share of the economy car market, such as the MG Metro & similar.
- They were a somewhat attractive option for people who wanted a particularly tough vehicle.
86.4.152.167 (talk) 18:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Notes for consideration :
according to KYB Europe (worlds biggest shock absorber manufacturer) - the 1100,1300,1500 engines (2108,2109,21099 models) are the Samara,Riva,Diva,Forma,Sagona Saloon, Hatch and fastback models - 1986 onwards.
1200,1300,1500,1600 cc engines (2101,2102,2103,2104,2105,2106,2107,21011,21061 models) are the VAZ, Nova and Toscana from 1970. Saloon and Estate.
If the suspension is different between these models then the chassis base would be also. therefore the '2105' is not a Riva.
source : http://www.kyb-europe.com/catalogue.asp download the PDF catalogue as this is more precise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.46.193.6 (talk) 11:15, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
2106 in the photograph
editThe "1981 in Canada" photograph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%2781_Lada_1500_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg) depicts a VAZ 21061 (with an enormous huge bumper I have never seen before), whereas the article mainly deals with 2104, 05 and 07 (a restyle Zhiguli version). Shouldn't the picture be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.39.35.200 (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 17:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
Lada Riva → VAZ-2105 – This current name isnt in line with WP:CARS naming system, there was also earlier discussion about the naming of the Lada articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#Lada_Riva--Relisted Drmies (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2013 (UTC)>Typ932 T·C 17:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose – The articles about the predecessors of this car, VAZ-2101 and VAZ-2103, are those that are not in line with the WikiProject conventions. These state that if there was a single other name, different than the home-market name, that was used in English-speaking markets, and the home market is not English-speaking, then the article shall have the name used in the English-speaking market. According to these conventions, the two articles, VAZ-2101 and VAZ-2103, shall be renamed to Lada 1200 and Lada 1500 respectively, as these are the names that they were marketed with in the export markets, including the United Kingdom. Here, it seems that Canada was the only other English-speaking market (those non-English-speaking are not relevant according to the conventions) that received the Lada Riva under a different name, as the Lada Signet. Considering this, I think we shall make an exception and keep this article at the current title, mentioning the Lada Signet name in the first sentence, then follow the necessary steps to rename the other two articles into Lada 1200 and Lada 1500, per conventions and consistency within article titles. BaboneCar (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Comment::This Wikipedia isnt UK wikipedia, the Riva name was only used there, rest of the world has many different names, thus the VAZ number is best known over globe -->Typ932 T·C 09:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: Names should be determined by what sources say, rather than by internal naming patterns which are not known to the vast majority of readers. What do (anglophone) sources call it? bobrayner (talk) 14:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Comment::It doesnt matter if the name is pattern we use, if name is pattern we cant reject it atomatically. The VAZ name is also used (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%90%D0%97-2107) so its not bare pattern, majority of readers doesnt know Riva anyway, there isnt "best" solution for this, if you read the earlier discussion. Its also hard to compare because Riva consists many models and 2105,2107 etc are one certain model.
- Lada Riva ca. 1 570 000 hits
- Lada 2105 ca. 9 850 000 hits
- VAZ 2105 ca. 4 060 000 hits
- Lada Nova ca. 905 000 hits
- -->Typ932 T·C 14:56, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Support - since the names used in English-speaking markets (UK, NZ, CDN, maybe others) are all different, then the original (Russian) market name should be used. It is also best known globally, which is a nice added benefit. "Each article shall be titled with the model name used in the subject vehicle's home market, unless a single name other than the home-market name is used in English-speaking markets" Mr.choppers | ✎ 18:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Also, since the 2101, 2103, and 2105 have been using the "1200" and "1300" "1500" names indiscriminately, depending on which engine was fitted, titling the articles thusly would lead to some serious confusion. Mr.choppers | ✎ 18:29, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Top Gear
editThere is a 'Top Gear' section that says "The Lada Riva has been featured twice on the British motoring program Top Gear" and then lists the two episodes it appeared in without making any further comment about how this was notable. Hundreds of cars have appeared on Top Gear, from expensive sports cars to cheap family cars, some praise and some blasted. For a car to appear on Top Gear is not a notable event. Unless the appearance significantly altered the sales, public opinion, etc, then it is not notable to the car article. That section should be deleted. Stepho talk 22:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- I cannot but agree with the opinion above expressed and have deleted the mention of Top Gear from this article; it is completely unimportant that the car of the late 1970s was recently featured in a popular TV show, let alone exposed to undeserved ridicule along with other Eastern Bloc cars, regardless of what their actual advantages and disadvantages are. Besides, the very mention of Top Gear, which was relaunched only in 2002, is out of place in the section that gives a brief introduction into the sales of Rivas to the UK in the 1980s and early 1990s. Adding that "Top Gear does not like the Riva for being out of date (which is not surprising for a car designed in the 1970s) and badly made (which is true for the late models built during the crisis of AvtoVAZ), and being inferior to the 1960s Fiat 124 that i[t] was based on (which is completely wrong and ridiculous, given the more advanced design, more powerful engine and higher durability of the Riva)" is of no importance, as it is nothing but a private and preconceived opinion expressed in a popular and controversial television series (different TV shows have expressed different opinions on this matter), and contradicts the fact that this car went into series production in the 1970s and is more technically advanced than the original and much more "outdated" Fiat 124. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 19:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Requested move 26 January 2016
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. SMcCandlish makes a very strong case which has not been rebutted. Additionally, since his oppose all further votes have also been opposes. Jenks24 (talk) 08:53, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Lada Riva → VAZ-2105 – As per titling guidelines, an article on a car should use the home market (=Russia/USSR in this case) unless all English-speaking markets use one and the same name. A previous attempt to move this page to a correctly titled entry was (mistakenly, imho) closed as no consensus - with two for and one against, and the opposing voter asking for an exemption for the "Riva". In Canada, the car was sold as the Signet and in NZ as the Lada Saloon (although it carried "LADA-2107" badging there). Mr.choppers | ✎ 05:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support as per Mr.choppers. This proposal makes perfect sense to me and would make this article compliant with the convention for car page names. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: If the home market is not an English-language market, this does not conform to WP:USEENGLISH, unless we can show that the foreign name is more used in English over the ones used by English language markets. We should choose the most popular English language name per WP:UE. WP:UE Use English. This is sold in the UK, an English-language market, so it is named correctly. -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 06:14, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Did you read the naming conventions? Since the car was sold in three English-speaking markets, with three different names, the home market name is to be used. These are the parameters set up by the Automobile Project, after lots of discussion. Mr.choppers | ✎ 08:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support - I second this. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 10:03, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree also, as this car has been known under various names in English-speaking markets, the titling guidelines are quite clear that the most common home market name should be used. Thus, the proposal by Mr.choppers appears to be the best course of action when following the convention. OSX (talk • contributions) 10:34, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support as per Mr.choppers and OSX. The Automobile project has already determined that this type of case should use the home market name, not one of the English names. 220.253.228.41 (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC) Oops, forgot to login. Stepho talk 16:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- This seems like a clear cut case of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of a WikiProject instead of the global consensus of WP:USEENGLISH for Wikipedia in General. -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:15, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- About halfway down WP:USEENGLISH you will find WP:DIVIDEDUSE, which negates your invocation of WP:USEENGLISH. If there was a clear cut winner in the English speaking world then we would use it. But there isn't and therefore we default to the home market name instead. Stepho talk 11:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- Non-English use does not count as divided use, otherwise our non-English films would use their native titles instead of English-language market titles. Use in English language markets where the car is sold counts as English use. And if there are more than one, we should choose one of them, per WP:ENGVAR we use a use from an English-language market. Per DIVIDEDUSE it would be very surprising to use a non-English name for a product that is sold in English-language markets -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:33, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think you missed it. In the UK (English speaking) and New Zealand (English speaking) it was called the Lada Riva. In Canada (English speaking) it was called the Lada 1500 and the Lada/Dennis Signet. I can't see any other English speaking markets. Hence WP:DIVIDEDUSE is applicable. Stepho talk 00:49, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- Non-English use does not count as divided use, otherwise our non-English films would use their native titles instead of English-language market titles. Use in English language markets where the car is sold counts as English use. And if there are more than one, we should choose one of them, per WP:ENGVAR we use a use from an English-language market. Per DIVIDEDUSE it would be very surprising to use a non-English name for a product that is sold in English-language markets -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:33, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
- About halfway down WP:USEENGLISH you will find WP:DIVIDEDUSE, which negates your invocation of WP:USEENGLISH. If there was a clear cut winner in the English speaking world then we would use it. But there isn't and therefore we default to the home market name instead. Stepho talk 11:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- This seems like a clear cut case of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of a WikiProject instead of the global consensus of WP:USEENGLISH for Wikipedia in General. -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:15, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support-->Typ932 T·C 19:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support per nom, and redirect this page to that. Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:20, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policies. The wikiproject's naming preferences are just a WP:PROJPAGE. All this WP:USEENGLISH vs. WP:DIVIDEDUSE venting is a waste of time. The common name in English is the Lada Riva. It could not reasonably be moved to VAZ-2105, as proposed, because (as the first words of the article state) the article covers the VAZ-2105, VAZ-2104 and VAZ-2107, which are collectively known as the Lada Riva (formally) or Lada Classic (among aficionados). That's two viable English-language names. It doesn't matter that the series was also known as the Lada Nova in the non-English-speaking parts of Continental Europe. This is a clear-cut case of a wikiproject making up its own rules against site-wide consensus and ignoring/misinterpreting the naming policy. None of our actual titles policy or proposed and accepted naming-conventions guidelines suggest anything about reverting to home-market name. Even WP:NCFILM doesn't do that, and this kind of question comes up very frequently with regard to films. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:07, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per SMcCandlish. Dr. K. 01:22, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per SMcCandlish - It became known as the Lada Riva almost everywhere so atleast to me it makes sense to keep it as it is per COMMONNAME. –Davey2010Talk 03:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per SMcCandlish. In addition, what it was called in various English markets is only part of what we consider. Another consideration is how do/did reliable English sources refer to the car in non-English markets. I admit I presume Lada Riva is the name used in those contexts. If that's not true supporters need to make their case accordingly, with references. Also, it sounds like we have another instance of project page enthusiasts unfamiliar in WP titling conventions and policies cooking up their own titling scheme. That needs to be rectified. --В²C ☎ 17:40, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
End of production in Egypt
editAccording to this blog post from November 2015, about classic cars in Cuba, production of the Lada 2107 model in Egypt continued until in 2014, when "the assembly line was retooled for the production of the modern Lada Granta". It seems hard to find references about this fact right now, but the claim that production is ongoing Egpyt is arguable. BaboneCar (talk) 17:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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Safety section
editThis ZR article compares the crash test results of two different Lada 21053 models, one from 2002 and an older one from 1994. The UNECE standards 12-03 and 33 are mentioned, and the article notes that the 1994 model fails to meet the second one. It goes on to say that when new regulations are approved in October of the same year, the new model probably will not pass them, either. So to say that 'the car met old UECE car safety standards but would not pass more modern safety regulations of the 2000s' is just misleading.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
- Added that the older car was a second-hand one, bought after it was used and when it was not in the perfect condition, as has been noted in the source. As for everything else, I have nothing more to say about your edits and, frankly, nothing more to do here or on other car-related pages. Thanks for your patience and explaining the rules to me. 90.155.195.3 (talk) 15:11, 21 December 2017 (UTC)