Talk:Hawk tuah

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. WP:RMEC-WP:SNOW. This is a change of subject from person to phrase and meme. Absence of opposition for multiple days in the aftermath of the AfD that also extensively considered subject formulation is evidence of this proposal's non-contentiousness so there is clearly no need at all to prolong the discussion further. The matter of Tuah (it could be that "Tuah" would better match the primary subject being the notable meme) or tuah (it could be that "tuah" would better match the primary subject being the phrase-notable-as-a-phrase) can be further discussed in the coming eons. WP:BLP1E is a very serious consideration here, as has been noted by editors, who find that the subject formulated as the person is inappropriate, which takes precedence of further discussing "Tuah" vs. "tuah" in this RM. (non-admin closure) —Alalch E. 20:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hawk Tuah Girl → Hawk Tuah – The closure of the previous AfD stated we should make it primarily about the meme rather than the person, and the corresponding discussion was clear that the article should not exist to cover only Haliey Welch because of WP:BLP1E but should instead focus on the event. The current title was chosen unilaterally and I think fails to orient the article towards the meme/phenomenon/video, and instead continues to orient the article around the individual. I am therefore proposing the article be renamed to simply Hawk tuah (capitalisation up for discussion) in similar fashion to other articles that discuss viral phrases, see You think you just fell out of a coconut tree?. This would also address several of the concerns raised on this talk page about the unusual/informal current page name. EoRdE6^(Talk) 01:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

i agree with this (see previous comment on the talk page), and also think Hawk Tuah would be the correct capitalisation. Cereally8 (talk) 12:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Support The rename and editing to make the article less about the individual and more about the meme. AusLondonder (talk) 14:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support I agree with everything said so far in this discussion.El monty (talk) 14:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Strong Support The current state of this article not only violates the AFD but also WP:NOTPROMO. The description should also be changed to internet meme. The entire aftermath section should accordingly be deleted.

ReidLark1n (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Here's what the article should look like. I imagine it looking like Star Wars Kid after we synthesize the aftermath section to be WP:NOTPROMO compliant.

{{Short description|Internet Meme}}

Hawk Tuah is a phrase from a viral video posted in 2024, in which during an interview, Haliey Welch^[a] (/ˈheɪli/; born 2002 or 2003)^[2] used the catchphrase, "hawk tuah", an apparent onomatopoeia for expectoration on a man's penis during oral sex.^[3]

History

On June 11, 2024, a man on the street YouTube channel, Tim & Dee TV, released a video featuring an interview with Haliey Welch in the Broadway district of Nashville, Tennessee.^[4] During the video, she was asked a series of not-safe-for-work questions including, "What’s one move in bed that makes a man go crazy every time?" Welch's reply, using her Southern accent, was, "You gotta give 'em that 'hawk tuah' and spit on that thang," referring to spitting on a man's penis during oral sex.^[5][2][6] The original video went viral, receiving millions of views across TikTok and Instagram, spawning remixes and remakes of the original audio, and gaining Welch the nickname Hawk Tuah Girl.^[7] ReidLark1n (talk) 23:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Strong support as per nom. Lewisguile (talk) 18:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Strong support per User:ReidLark1n. Reads very much like a promotional article in its current state, and would be far better off being about the meme itself instead of the advertisement for the WP:BLP1E case it currently comes off as. JeffSpaceman (talk) 15:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Support The AfD consensus was very clear. This article should be about the meme/phrase. This was discussed already, and I find the closer's decision very odd as the current name has an identical scope to the previous, equally problematic name, which is why the page is still in the same unacceptable state that it was when it was brought to AfD. This page shouldn't just be a bullet-point list of every time Welch got to hang out with larger celebrities. That's the clearest example of WP:NOTNEWS (4. Celebrity gossip and diary) I've seen in all my years on this site. I'd delete the infobox and at least two thirds of the Aftermath section. The meme is notable. The person behind the meme is not.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Multiple support !voters have based their support in policy, such as WP:NCCAPS. The majority of the oppose votes, however, seem to be opposing the move not based on a specific policy, but because they believe the alternate title of Haliey Welch is preferable. That in my assessment is not really an opposition to this specific RM, and should be explored in a separate RM. In this specific discussion, there is consensus to move the article to Hawk tuah. There is also no consensus in this specific discussion to move the article to Haliey Welch, however I expect a new RM discussion to do so soon. (non-admin closure) cyberdog958^Talk 03:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hawk Tuah → Hawk tuah – Unnecessary capitalization. Article is no longer about the "Hawk Tuah Girl" (where title case would be necessary). The RM above was closed without really addressing the captalization. C F A 💬 21:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:31, 8 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support per WP:NCCPT: "Hawk tuah" and "tuah" are not proper nouns, and should be capitalised accordingly. pluckyporo ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support as title is not a proper noun. — Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 23:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree, and the meme itself is not a user/nickname. Tonkarooson • (📭|Edits). 11:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose and reconsider a move to Haliey Welch. Now that Talk Tuah has established notability, this is no longer a case of WP:BLP1E. See Cash me outside / Danielle Bregoli, Chocolate Rain / Tay Zonday. 162 etc. (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I don't think opposing the move is right. The move is technically better than the current state ("Hawk Tauh" is not a proper noun), but "Haliey Welch" may be an even more appropriate target. seefooddiet (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Well, this is an improvement for now. Whether 1E is applicable anymore is a separate discussion that shouldn't happen in an unrelated RM. C F A 💬 01:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Most reliable sources do capitalize "Hawk Tuah", so I disagree with the proposed title. No objection to discussing the "Haliey Welch" idea in a different thread. 162 etc. (talk) 02:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  You may be right; I'll withdraw my vote below. Most of the capitalization uses come from the proper noun "Hawk Tuah Girl". However, there are a good number of sources that capitalize it anyway. seefooddiet (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I don't think Haliey Welch can be compared to Tay Zonday or Danielle Bregoli. One has 40 + sources and the other has 100 +. She just made a podcast with Logan Paul which is not the same as being on Jimmy Kimmel and the Billboard 100. ReidLark1n (talk) 19:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Notability shouldn't be gauged by a comparison to other sources or to the state of sourcing. If the article meets notability guidelines, then it is notable regardless of other, similar articles. pluckyporo ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:21, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I don’t disagree but the above comment said Haliey Welch supersedes WP:BLP1E and cited those articles and, like you, I agree that we shouldn’t compare articles. ReidLark1n (talk) 21:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I like this, but I'm also fine with the title as it is. Tonkarooson • (📭|Edits). 12:02, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support per my comment above. Edit: Actually I'm not sure, per exchange above with 162 etc. Also, "Hawk tuah" should be italicized, as it's an article about a phrase. I'll go ahead and make those changes. seefooddiet (talk) 01:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak Oppose because it is unclear whether it could become a proper noun. Some of our sources capitalize both.

ReidLark1n (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

We generally default to sentence case when it is unclear. Most sources only use "Hawk Tuah" in reference to "Hawk Tuah Girl" (a proper noun) or her products (also proper nouns). C F A 💬 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not going to fight this one. ReidLark1n (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oppose and consider a move to Haliey Welch. LucarioJapans (talk) 11:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I oppose a move to Haliey Welch per WP:BLP1E and the previous AfD. We can't repeatedly have this discussion with different editors until we get a different answer. ReidLark1n (talk) 22:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose per 162 etc. Where it's used it often refers to the girl and as a proper name, so capitalising it is correct. A move to Haliey Welch might well be appropriate though.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Preserving my above objection - I oppose a move to Haliey Welch per WP:BLP1E and the previous AfD. We can't repeatedly have this discussion with different editors until we get a different answer. ReidLark1n (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Consensus can change. There has been one discussion, the AfD you linked, and there has been a new development since. I'm not sure what your point is. C F A 💬 01:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  No, there has not only been one discussion. This is the third discussion regarding what the article should be about. And the "new development" is the article which you created and have been arguing meets notability and reliability guidelines. The point is that the consensus has been clear and can't be unilaterally changed. ReidLark1n (talk) 23:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  It can't be unilaterally changed, but that's what consensus is for. C F A 💬 01:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I guess my problem is that, when I look at the sources used to justify expanding this article, or to create offshoots of this article, I see Vulture^[1], Newsweek^[2], Buzzfeed^[3], the Express Tribune^[4], Kotaku^[5], Her Campus^[6], the Hollywood Reporter^[7], etc. Of course, there is also the occasion article by Forbes^[8] or Billboard^[9].

  I see a major drop in the quality and reliability of the sources being used whereas this article was created, upon some opposition about notability, because of the reliability of sources like the Washington Post^[10], Rolling Stone^[11], the Guardian^[12] , The New York Times^[13], etc.

  So, when we have the discussion in the future about moving this article for the umpteenth time, I would be much more likely to agree if the subsequent developments were not mostly blog or tabloid posts, but instead classic reliable sources.

  My point is, we haven't really seen a second peak when it comes to reliable sources: it's just been a bell curve. Thus, Welch still, more or less, falls under WP:BLP1E because she's really only been heavily reported about once. While I think the hybrid of Forbes and Billboard along with the less reliable sources may justify Talk Tuah, I really don't think we are yet at the point of superseding WP:BLP1E and there have been some pretty serious concerns about WP:NOTPROMO when it comes to Welch. ReidLark1n (talk) 14:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  All of the publications you've listed are considered generally reliable, except (from least reliable) Her Campus, Newsweek, and BuzzFeed. C F A 💬 15:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Per WP:RSPSS:

  1. Vulture - GS, but used only to support the statement "Talk Tuah is an American podcast starring Haliey Welch, the subject of the viral internet meme "hawk tuah"";

  2. Newsweek - not generally reliable WP:NEWSWEEK;

  3. Buzzfeed - highly inconsistent WP:BUZZFEED;

  4. Express Tribune - not listed;

  5. Kotaku - not listed;

  6. Her Campus - not listed; and

  7. Hollywood Reporter - GS, but used only to support the statement "Talk Tuah is an American podcast starring Haliey Welch, the subject of the viral internet meme "hawk tuah"".

  So there's a small increase in GS reporting, but I still feel that, at most, it justified Talk Tuah but not Haliey Welch per WP:BLP1E since the articles only talk about her in relation to her WP:BLP1E event. ReidLark1n (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I got the rest of the reliability assessments from WP:NPPSG, in case you're wondering. But that's besides the point: Notability is not based on the presence of reliable sources in an article (or the statements they verify); it's based on the mere existence of significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. There is plenty of in-depth coverage of the podcast in independent, reliable sources, so notability there is not an issue. Whether or not that "additional" notability still falls under the "single event" is what we're discussing now. C F A 💬 03:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I still don't see reliability in express tribune and kotaku articles. Moreover significant coverage in unreliable sources doesn't establish notability.

  But let's look at these sources even further: are they talking about Haliey Welch? Or are they talking about Hawk Tuah, the Hawk Tuah Girl, or Talk Tuah? That's just the problem I'm running into. When we get down to it, won't an article on Haliey Welch be so paltry as to beg the question: why are we here? When was she born? Where was she born? Where did she go to high school? Who is pookie (this is a joke from her podcast - yes, I listened to it). Here's what it will be: (based on what the Hawk Tuah Girl article was before we moved it) a list of celebrities she met, donations she made, her podcast deals, her sponsors and brand deals, mentions of her on Fox News in relation to Kamala Harris, etc. It will constantly be running afoul of WP:NOTPROMO because that's all we know about her

  At most, maybe this gets moved to Hawk Tuah Girl with Haliey Welch in parenthesis. But still, she's the Hawk Tuah Girl or it's the Hawk Tuah meme - this is the essence of her WP:BLP1E conundrum.

  I propose because there is no deadline we wait and see if more reliable sources justify this move - if there is more than a bell curve in reliable reporting. I really don't think we should supersede WP:BLP1E because of a bump in, at most, barely reliable sources which aren't even talking about Haliey Welch. ReidLark1n (talk) 15:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Per the above, it might be worth creating a new discussion regarding a potential move to Hailey Welch. It seems this would be more likely to achieve consensus. pluckyporo ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Relisting comment: Relisting for further discussion estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:31, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose and rename the page to Haliey Welch. She is notable in her own right, and it would make more sense for Hawk Tuah to be linked under her name. LivelytheTrain (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I disagree. The meme is infinitely more popular than her and would help more people find the page Driestbrick (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  The Talk Tuah podcast has become quite notable in its own right, and it massive features Haliey. It would make a lot more sense for everything to be lumped together in one name. LivelytheTrain (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  I disagree that a podcast can become notable just because it is being made no matter who is on it (if that is what you are saying). I want to see reliable reporting done on it to justify creating not only Talk Tuah but also a Haliey Welch article. I oppose moving this article altogether beyond for grammatical purposes (i.e. there should still be a page for the internet phenomenon). ReidLark1n (talk) 14:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Support This article is either about the term she used, which per the linked quote was said in lowercase, or about her. Per the AfD and the previous RM it's about the term, not the person, so we should reflect that and not try to use capitalization as some sort of weird half measure - we've made a choice, so stick to it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support this was my original intention with the previous move request. This article remains about the term. Any article about the person should be created separately and discussed separately. EoRdE6^(Talk) 15:13, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support this article is about hawk tuah, a word, not a proper noun. IDK why we need all of this bureaucracy to correct a typo.. and now there are even people proposing moving it to the girl's real name too lol (I suppose an administrator needs to delete Hawk tuah first then move this page there to keep the edit history—but this is all very silly). ❧ LunaEatsTuna (talk), proudly editing since 2018 (and just editing since 2017) – posted at 01:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support since the article is about the meme, not a proper name, not about the person. Dicklyon (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support This article is about the expression (a meme), which is effectively a term of art. Per MOS:SIGNIFCAPS (through WP:NCCAPS) we don't cap such terms. Where we usually see "Hawk Tuah Girl" (capitalised as such), this article is no longer about the person but the expression. The expression as part of a name that is capitalised does not justify the capitalisation of the expression alone. The article is not about Hailey Welch. If an article were to be written about Hailey Welch, then it might be appropriate to merge this content into such an article - but that is something for the future. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
• Support. An utterance is not a proper name, and this is not "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" (MOS:CAPS, emphasis in original). This is also effectively covered by MOS:INCIPIT: when part of the wording of material that doesn't have a formal title is used as a pseudo-title for it, then it takes sentence case not title case. There is no principle by which this would apply to songs and poems and speeches and so on but somehow not to short-form videos. As for the various merge or total-rename propositions: Haliey Welch as a person is clearly not independently notable, and is a WP:BLP1E case; she has virtually no RS coverage that is not directly tied to the globally known "hawk tuah" meme [which more sensibly would have been called "hock ptui", using conventional English; but we're stuck with "hawk tuah", since that odd rendering got "fossilized" quickly for some reason]. It is rather unlikely that Talk Tuah is independently notable either; I expect that if it were AfDed, for lack of in-depth coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources (there's some coverage, but it is trivial in depth, and is really mostly about the meme and its "legacy", not about the podcast's content and production or about Welch as a person), the result would be to merge it as a summarized section to the present article. If it were kept as a separate article, it would still be improper to redirect the personal name to that, since to the extremely minor extent any members of the general public know her name, virtually all of them associate it with the meme-video not with her podcast (an even smaller percentage of the human race know that podcast exists or what it is named), and the podcast in turn is derivational from the meme-video.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

  This is what I've been saying. A handful of editors have been arguing she is notable because they created the page for her podcast. I'm neither convinced Haliey Welch is notable to supersede WP:BLP1E nor that Talk Tuah is notable at all given the lack of in depth coverage by reliable sources. However, that could change if such reporting is done. ReidLark1n (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply