Talk:Clan MacNeil

This article is an exact copy of Clan MacNeil of Barra. One of these two should be turned into a redirect of the other. Which is the more proper name for this article? Clan MacNeil or Clan MacNeil of Barra? Resolute 20:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Would like to see the reverse, namely have Clan MacNeil of Barra as the name of the article and Clan MacNeil as a disambiguation page. There are two branches of the clan, and those two branches might not even be related. There are also spelling variations, but all could go to Clan MacNeil and have a general discussion there with articles linked having to do with the Barra vs. Gigha specifics. --Jeffmcneill ^{talk contribs} 03:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'd like to see some of the evidence about the possibility of the two branches being unrelated. It seems unlikely; they have almost identical badges, tartans, mottos, records of those from Barra being in Argyll; more to the point, MacNeil and McNeill are anglicisations of the same Gaelic name MacNeill. The article should obviously be divided into sections for each part and location associated with the clan/s.

There ought to be links to http://www.the-macneils.org.uk. Frankly, it seems that the only organised presence is of the Barra spelling; not any other (when it comes to domain names).(a different J.McNeill)

This article uses the terms Norse in an ambiguos way. I believe it is commonly accepted that Norsemen or Norse in English usage is a general term for Scandinavians of the Viking era. When you say "of Norse or Danish origin" it is similar to saying "of British or English origin". If you mean Norwegian say so. If you know the people were predominantly Norwegian and Danish say so. If it is unclear if the people were predominantly Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic or other Norsemen use Norse. Norse is not synonymous to Norwegian and the Norwegians were as clearly defined as Swedes and Danes were so there is no reason to replace Norwegian with Norse. It will only add confusion.Inge 17:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

As a McNeill of Colonsay, I really do object to being lumped in with the MacNeils of Barra.

It seems some ignorant American has gone and undone all my work at correcting matters.

The Clan Chief of the MacNeils is NOT the Clan Chief of the McNeills!

What did you add? You don't have any contributions to the article at all.--Celtus (talk) 05:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

What are you on about? This article contains statements that are incorrect.

As for contributions, there's more than one IP address and username in the world for pity's sake! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.19.254 (talk) 18:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Easy there. You've just removed referenced text and added some misleading statements. The chief of Clan MacNeil is chief of the name. That means he is chief of all MacNeills by Scots law. Please don't add pretend chiefs. There doesn't seem to be a recognised Clan MacNeill, either.--Celtus (talk) 06:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Excuse me, that sounds like an unsubstantiated personal attack. I did not add misleading statements, and I only removed irrelevant content. The existence of a reference is not in istelf enough... the reference has to be credible and relevant, and the content it purports to back up credible and relevant as well.

The Chief of the clan MacNeil is the chief of the clan MacNeil; not of McNeill of Colonsay. Show the Scottish Law that says otherwise. The SCSC has nothing to do with Scots Law (beyond trademarking of clan identifiers for those who are members... but that protection is available to non-member clans under Scottish Law), it's just a pressure group, a club, and has never included or represented all the clans, it is factually inaccurate to state in the article that:"according to a 1962 decree by the Lord Lyon, the chiefs of MacNeil of Barra are chiefs of the whole name of MacNeil by Scots law"; try checking your facts before condescending to people.

Someone can be 'chief of a clan', while another person is 'chief of the name'. The Baron of Carnock was chief of the name Nicolson, but Nicolson of Scorrybreac was recognised by Lyon as chief of the Clan MacNicol. There is a chief of the name Macdonald, and there are various chiefs of branches of Clan Donald. Fraser has a chief of the name, and also a chief of a clan. Why would the Standing Council website be unreliable when it states that Lyon declared MacNeil of Barra as 'chief of the name' ("Lord Lyon's 1962 decree that the MacNeils of Barra are chiefs of the whole name of MacNeil laid those questions to rest at law"[1]). Do you dispute what the website says, or what Lyon ruled, or what?--Celtus (talk) 05:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

I did not add a pretend chief, the chief of Clan McNeill is a descendant of John Carstairs McNeill, in New Zealand, and not related to the chief of Clan MacNeil. Whether to you it seems that there is a recognised clan or not has no bearing on whether the clan exists or not. A Website does not "an official clan" make! Clan is about "blood" and "land" first and foremost.

Please don't delete real chiefs of my clan just because you are not aware of them; put a tag on it by all means, but kindly refrain from logically fallacious remarks.

This is not your personal wikipage to guard to ensure that the world sees things your way.

There are loads of errors in this article, like the lack of a "grave" accent on "bas" in the motto. The Clan badges are for MacNeil of Barra; not McNeill of Colonsay. The assertion that the Latin translation for McNeill of Colonsay is wrong. The spelling "Macneil" is non-standard - it's "MacNeil"; the colour of the tartans are wrong; there's inconsistent spelling all over the shop - there's no "Macneil of Colonsay"... the list goes on. This is an ill-formed American-centric page... what's a "Caucasian"? People from Georgia and Daghestan?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.105.238 (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

Find a good ref that gives the motto you think should be on the crest badge. Here's another pic of the crest badge [2], beware the pic comes from the totally unreliable Standing Council website. Way of Plean and Squire's Clans & Tartans (2000) also gives buaidh no bas, though both men have connections with Lyon Court, so the info in this book may possibly be suspect as well.--Celtus (talk) 05:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

The massive list of names that was recently copy and pasted from various McNeil, Neil, etc. disambig pages belongs on those disambiguation pages - not this article. Same goes for Al Gore and his ggg-grandfather McNeil...--Celtus (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Irrelevant content removed.--Celtus (talk) 09:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

What irrelevant content? Can you please discuss what you're doing before making executive decisions! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.19.254 (talk) 18:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

I did discuss it, left it for about a week and then made the changes. Here is what i was referring to though - [3].--Celtus (talk) 06:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hey, I'm an American with Scottish roots, and I don't know much about heraldry. I do know that only the chief can wear the coat of arms, but I was wondering if is approporiate to place the coat of arms on the Wiki page, and if so, would someone be willing to include one and a discussion of the symbolism?

the motto of clan mcneill SURRENDER OR DIE, much migration and clans imprisoned, killed after culloden, lots went to the colonies, you bustve come from one ae those brave soals, trying to restore, the rightful stewart line, n theres a lot of catholics still in Scotland, its all mixed up in the protestant thing and how the british monarchs head of the church etc...I digress....so aye, my grandfather and census records show migration from islands to central Scotland in 1800s and more in 1900s checkable on ancestry , com site... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.252.161 (talk) 17:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC) I know that the canadian and American Clan MacNeil pages have an image of the crest, but I don't know if it's available to use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgiamed (talk • contribs) 23:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi Georgiamed. We need to know the copyright status of the images. Read this: Wikipedia:Finding images tutorial. Anyways, the image quality of the coat of arms on the Canadian site, sucks. I don't think there's much point uploading that. Plus we don't know where it came from, or whether it is out of date or not. The American site is pretty dubious, because it appears to be just bits and pieces pulled from websites around the net. For instance, he's pulled the crest badges from scotclans.com, and the maps are pulled off electricscotland.com, he's also pulled text off houseofnames.com. You can bet the coat of arms there is from some other website. We shouldn't use anything from that website, plus i don't think it should even be linked in the article, (Wikipedia:External links). I think, if we want to show the chief's arms we need to get the correct blazon (description) of his arms, then we could try and find a person on the Wikimedia Commons who will create an image from the blazon. We need to know the correct blazon because there's no way of knowing whether the pics you see in books or on the net are current, out of date, or made up, or just mistaken. A perfect example are the user created crest badges in our article right now. I think both have mistakes in them... (the crest is wrong in the MacNeil one, and the motto is wrong in the McNeill one).--Celtus (talk) 06:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Here's a blazon of the arms of MacNeil of Barra, (source: Adam, Frank; Innes of Learney, Thomas]] (1970). The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands (8th edition ed.). Edinburgh: Johnston and Bacon. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)). I think it is out of date though, for instance the crest doesn't appear to be current, also the motto is different from the one used in the crest badge, there may be other things too, but those are the only I noticed right now. Here's what the reference gives... "Arms: Quarterly. 1, Vert, a lion rampant or. 2, Argent, in base the sea, with a castle issuant therefrom proper. 3, Or, a lymphad, sails furled sable. 4, Or, a dexter hand palewise couped gules, within an orle of nine fetterlocks. Crest: A rock proper. Supporters: Two lions propre. Motto: "Vincere vel mori" (Vicotry or death). Lyon Register, II,5; III, 24; XXII, 60; XLVI, 61."--Celtus (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Clan MacNeil may be a Good article candidate (Wikipedia:WikiProject Clans of Scotland/Assessment). One problem I foresee is the unreferenced list of chiefs, is this list really necessary? Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 01:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

No Chance! Not until the errors, lack of refs, and typographic inconsistency is sorted out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.105.238 (talk) 23:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

There are actually 2 versions of the Latin Motto circulating: "Vincere vel mori" and "Vincere aut mori". Both of them seem to be extant on the Internet, though "vel" seems to be more common. Technically "aut" is "exclusive or" while "vel" is "inclusive or" (i.e. vel includes the logical concept of "conquering while also dying"). Personally (as a "Neill"), I know this as "vincere vel mori", but someone authoritative should weigh in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.19.201 (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

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