Talk:Bulgarian folk dance

Somebody is spreading the rumor that Bulgarian music and and dances only use asymmetrical meters divided into lengths of 2 and 3, and editing away more detailed information. Please guard against such editing. For example, Eleno Mome and Petrunino horo both exist written in meters 2+2+1+2, 4+4+2+3, 3+4+2+3, but not in other meters such a 3+3+2+3. Writing it 2+2+2+2+2+3, 12=3+2+2+2+3 is wrong, as there are no such secondary accents.

Sandansko oro 2+2+2+3, 2+2+2+3+2+2, 2+2+2+3, 2+2+2+3+2+2 but dont think of beats, think of the dance. The movements of the dance came before the pens of the academics...

The preceding comment was written by yet another unnamed "somebody" at some indeterminate time. But as I find it today, the article has a much more nuanced understanding of rhythm and metre, even describing three architectonic levels in the kopanitsa:

For example, the 11/16 rhythm of the dance kopanitsa is often described as quick-quick-slow-quick-quick, (2+2+3+2+2) whereas the tune may be played in what may be written as (2+2)+(2+1)+(2+2), i.e., an 11 time with primary accent at 1, secondary accents at 5 and 8, and ternary accents at 3, 7, and 10; the dancers thus dance to a meter composition 4+3+2+2, which may also be played by the musicians, e.g., in Traichovo horo (Трайчово хоро).

The notation

(2+2)+(2+1)+(2+2)

is a particularly useful technique for indicating grouping of beats at the two lowest levels. And I appreciate the comment

but dont (sic) think of beats, think of the dance

however, advice like this is not much help to the casual reader or one entirely unfamiliar with the dances in question, so a great way to improve the article would be to add more information about the dance steps themselves, perhaps with links to videos of dance performances. yoyo (talk) 08:31, 6 June 2016 (UTC)Reply

How about alphabetizing the list of dances? The current "simple to complex" listing order may be traditional but doesn't serve the vast majority of readers who simply want to look up a dance. --Chetvorno^TALK 10:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I wonder, in fact, if they shouldn't be listed with their Cyrillic spellings first, and then alphabetized in the Cyrillic alphabet. That would seem to me to be the most respectful way to organize it. AndrewCarnie (talk) 17:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

That's an interesting idea, and I certainly agree with the importance of being culturally respectful. Of course the transliteration of Bulgarian names is not standardized, but the particular variant used wouldn't make much difference in the alphabetical order: Račenica, Rachenitza, and Ruchenitsa would fall in roughly the same place and would be findable by anyone looking up any of those spellings. In a specialized work for experts or Cyrillic readers dances should be listed as you suggest, but in an English encyclopedia I feel Cyrillic alphabetizing would confuse readers even more than the current random order. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Well the current order isn't random, it's by complexity of meter. The simpler meters are at the beginning, the more complex ones at the end. This is often how it is presented, as the complex meters are often formed by combining the simpler ones. (eg. Jove Male Mome is alternate bars of a Gankino and Širto, so doing Jove Male Mome after Gankino and Širto makes sense). I think most people who aren't familiar with this can find what they are looking for by making use of the search function on their browser, that's how I do it.AndrewCarnie (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I think it's better if the list follows ethnographic logic - separate the dances from the different ethnographic areas, as they are very different from each other. Also, the list seems quite incomplete and too short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahhak (talk • contribs) 12:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

The list now is inaccurate. Svornato Horo for example is not from Pirin, it's from the Rhodopes - that's fact known by every Bulgarian. Probably using Manol Todorov's work, you would have noticed it. Nonetheless, I don't think only one source makes the article encyclopedic enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.82.106 (talk) 21:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

For those of us who would like to add a dance but don't know the Cyrillic name, can anyone suggest places to find the names of Bulgarian dances in Cyrillic? I googled the transliterated name in Roman letters but predictably just got Western folk dance sources. Are there Bulgarian language translation sites that can perform this translation reliably? Thanks. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

one source is the eefc listserv (eefc@eefc.org). Also you can just ask here. Many of us know enough cyrillic to do the job.AndrewCarnie (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Great. Thanks for doing Tropanka. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

It wasn't me but as you can see, folks want to help :-) AndrewCarnie (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I found one way is to search a site like http://www.balkanfolk.com/, and then switch to Bulgarian. Alternatively, one can try transliterate it using http://transliteration.mdaar.government.bg/trans.php, which checks for valid names. Then search for the Bulgarian names, to see if it appears. A site like http://translate.google.com/ may help with translations. Haberg (talk) 22:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

The explanation of asymmetric meters is fantastic. Thanks to whoever added it. I was thinking - I believe much of it also applies to the music of other Balkan countries. I was wondering if whoever added it could add a similar section (minus the dance references) to the Music of Southeastern Europe article, since it has no mention of the unique Balkan rhythms. I don't have any knowlege of music myself. --Chetvorno^TALK 06:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

One thing I wonder. The whole article named Bulgarian DANCES doesn't actually mention ANYTHING about the dances in terms of choreography, dancing style. So is the excellent part on music the only good part of an article that is supposed to mention dance? The whole article says nothing about dancing. Probably all this information has to be moved to the Bulgarian Music section and this article has to be redone, this time using materials by ethnochoreologists, choreographers and folklorists instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahhak (talk • contribs) 06:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

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