Talk:Mildred Mottahedeh

Eddie891 Okay, first things, since NYT articles are often behind paywalls, I looked in Wayback and find a link that doesn't ask me for a subscription. I always look for parents and find nothing at all for Mildred Root. But then I found this this. Pretty sure it is her, same birth date, same birth place and photo looks to be the same woman, though younger. If you don't have a subscription, you can just sign up. It's free. Following that line, I come up with parents Flora Margolius and Jacob B. Wurtzel were Jewish. They apparently had a tumultuous relationship. Her father was the owner of a grocery in Seabright and her mother was the daughter of Joseph Margolius, who owned the Hotel Brighton in Long Branch, New Jersey.[2] When the parents divorced, the three children went to live with their mother. (Flora's brother Max lives in Perth Amboy, this is important later, and apparently she was pregnant at the time because a 4th child appears in the paper and on census records, below.) [3] Pretty sure it was Mildred who was kidnapped.[4] Flora worked in a store as a clerk.[5] Mildred attended Garfield Avenue School in Long Branch,[6] and then I'm pretty sure she is the Mildred Wurtzel who attended the New Jersey College for Women.[7] It says she was from Perth Amboy. Her Uncle lived there and census records confirm that Flora moved there around 1920 with the children.1910 p 11A-11B, lines 47-52, 1915 p 10A lines 42-46, 1920 p 12A lines 34-38,1930 p 8A lines 32-35 Wanted you to look this over and advise. I'll do a light copyedit, without additions. Looks to be in pretty good shape to me.SusunW (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Can you check this The couple visited Jingdezhen, China in 1979, their first time traveling to the country. I don't have access to the source, but it conflicts with the NYT's article which says When her husband died in 1978, Mrs. Mottahedeh succeeded him as president and remained active in the company, even after it was sold, until her retirement in 1998 Couldn't find an obit for Rafi, but doing due diligence, this confirms he was dead by October 1978. I think it is important to put in that she ran the company from that point, so I moved that from later in the article. SusunW (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I've made some minor changes to the text as requested. Please ping me if I can assist further. SusunW (talk) 17:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Wow, SusunW, you really are Amazing! I've fixed the bit about flying with her husband (it was another man, but if memory serves at least one source gets this wrong). Thanks so much for having a read-through So for all of that information you dug up early life, how much of that would you say I could add in with the understanding that censuses can be iffy? I'm thinking something like what follows. I'm not familiar with how or when citing family search records are appropriate, so if you could show me what you would do for that, I'd greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately, I think the article about kidnapping may be a bit of a stretch to definitively say it was her, though I'd agree it seems awfully likely that it was. I also found a newsBank obituary of a 'Samuel Wurtzel' that says He is survived by his wife, Stephanie Wurtzel; two sons, Alan L. Wurtzel of Richmond, and David M. Wurtzel of Florence, Italy; two stepsons, Norman Sylvester of Armonk, N.Y., and Timothy Sylvester of Denver; two sisters, Mildred Mottahedeh of New York, and Esther Nelson of Spokane, Wash. Which may help make the connection more explicit? Thank you so much, again. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Proposed addition

Mildred Ruthe Wurtzel was born on August 7, 1908 in Sea Bright, New Jersey to Flora Margolius and Jacob B. Wurtzel.^[1][2] Her father was the owner of a grocery in Seabright and her mother was the daughter of Joseph Margolius, who owned the Hotel Brighton in Long Branch, New Jersey. They had married in 1903.^[3] By 1911 the couple was in the process of getting a divorce, and Mildred was living with her two siblings and her mother.^[4] She was educated at the Garfield Avenue School in Long Branch^[5] and attended the New Jersey College for Women.^[6]

Eddie891 That looks fine to me. Again, you don't have to use the census records, they simply are due diligence to confirm the other info is about her. To ensure that everything fits together, no gaps in the sources as far as I can tell, as they all seem to confirm the same info repeatedly. There's a lot of misunderstanding about using primary records on WP. It isn't OR if you are simply stating what the source says without drawing any conclusions. (And yes, it would be a stretch to definitively state it "was" Mildred who was kidnapped, but she does appear to be the only three year old in the family at that time ;) .) And good find on Samuel's obit. Another piece of evidence tying them all together. SusunW (talk) 19:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I also note that her dad was Austrian and her mom was Russian, so their pronunciation of Ruthe would have been more like Root, or Ruta. SusunW (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mildred Mottahedeh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Z1720 (talk · contribs) 01:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I will be reviewing this article in the coming days. When responding, please ping me so that I know to check this page. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar):   b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):  

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section):   b (citations to reliable sources):   c (OR):   d (copyvio and plagiarism):  

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects):   b (focused):  

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:  

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:  

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):  

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:  

Hi, thanks for nominating this article for GAN. There are only a couple of concerns for this article before I can pass this. Let me know when they are complete.

• I am really skeptical of reference 1, the New York Times obituary. [8]. I looked in the TimesMachine and an author is not listed, even though some other obituaries have the author listed. The language used in the obituary is also overly flowery and talks more about the family. This makes me think this is an obituary written by someone close to Mottahedeh without editorial oversight by NYT. This reference is used to support some outstanding claims, like "The company saw great success, becoming one of the "most prestigious firms in the reproduction of porcelain"" or "Upon her death, The New York Times described it as "one of the world's finest private collections"" Where possible, this citation should be removed (especially when you already have 2 or 3 sources supporting a fact) or replaced.

• Cut the quotes to the obit, but I don't see a problem with using it for basic biographical details-- even if it is written by someone close to here, it's likely to be accurate particularly when considering 1) it is the NYT 2) we cannot say for sure who wrote it and 3) the author, whoever they were, is not likely to get the biographical details wrong whether they are a staff writer or relative. Point taken about using it for reputation-al stuff. I was able to cut the number of uses down noticably, what do you think?Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 03:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

• "Its work was used in three presidential inaugurations." You had great detail about Bush's inauguration, but what about the other two?

• Unfortunately, that's all the detail that I found on the topic-- I think the detail about Bush was available because Barbara had such a high opinion of her Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 03:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

• The third paragraph feels very disorganized, both within the paragraph and in the entire Careers section. This is because it breaks with the timeline presented in the rest of the section and jumps around a lot. For example, you talk about H. W. Bush, then Reagan, then Hoover. I suggest dispersing this information within the rest of the Careers section so it doesn't feel like an outlier or out of place.

• I split the details about Reagan and Hoover and moved the rest of the paragraph to be approximately chronological-- how does it look now?

• "In 1982, The Christian Science Monitor described Mottahedeh as "one of the foremost international authorities on Chinese export porcelain"" This needs a citation after the quote, even if it is later in the paragraph.

• Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 03:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

• You have her death date listed twice in the Personal life section.

• Fixed Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 03:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

References were spot-checked (especially if they used quotes) and seem fine. Images are OK.

Great job with the article. Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

• Z1720, thanks for the review! All points addressed, let me know what you think. Happy to discuss any further, particularly the NYT reference if you aren't satisfied. Cheers, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 03:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Z1720, The new york times obituary is now referenced just three times, to establish what are, to me, reasonable things for her obituary to establish, such as her date and place of death, the nature of her collection, and the years she was president of the company. Let me know what you think. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:42, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hi Eddie891 I agree with you that we can still use the obituary as a source, I was just concerned that it was being used for extraordinary claims. I like the edits you have completed concerning the source.

My concern now is the sentence, "Her son, Roy P. Mottahedeh,[22] is a historian of the medieval Near East and a recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship.[39]" I would support taking it out of the article as offtopic (it doesn't really fit anywhere as there isn't a personal life section) or moving it to the "Early life" section after talking about her marriage. I would combine the sentence about her death date with the last sentence in the article. Z1720 (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

thanks, Z1720, what do you think of my most recent revision? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Looks good! I am giving this GAN a pass. Congratulations! I will update the article in the next few minutes (I'm at work so it might get delayed). Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Reply