Talk:Coladeira

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I must say this is a pretty good description of the genre. many times when i would tell people the influence of haitian music(kompa) they would not believe me. good job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dj iET (talk • contribs) 10:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Ten Islands: I have updated the page to give the same details as you did with the French Antilles. Please take notice that the 1/2 rythm used in zouk/coladeira/kizomba/passada was originated in Haiti. As the Cubans called it "Tumba Francesca" (spelling). I think Haiti deserves the same detailed and accurate description as that you gave of the Antilles. I think this is an excellent article and that you are one of the few who actually really know the history of music. much credit is owed my friend.

I am sorry to say it to you like this, but by the way you are talking one can clearly see that you don’t know Cape Verdean music.

You are confusing a lot of things, and you are putting a lot of wrong information, furthermore without sources. Do you have any reference books bout Cape Verdean music that you can cite? Any encyclopedia about music?

1. The influence of Haitian music in the coladeira was very small. It was in the transition from the 60's to the 70's, (2nd period) when the coladeira absorbed a lot of eclectic influence, ranging from African music (from Angola, from Guinea-Bissau), to Latin America music (Colombia, Brazil) passing to Caribbean music (Cuba). But the influence of Haitian music was small and punctual.
2. In the 80's (3rd period) began the influence of zouk. Of zouk, precisely, and not of any Carribean music. This influence came from France, and not directly from the Antilles. This influence originated a new form of coladeira (not the one that was mentioned before, having African and Latin American influence), that sometimes merged the old coladeira with the zouk, and sometimes is pratically a copy of the French-based zouk. This new form does not have a specific name, but it is seldomly called “coladeira”. It is ocasionally known as “cola-dance”, “cola-zouk”, “cabo-love”, etc.
3. Bear in mind that this text is pratically a translation of the correspondent Portuguese article. I don’t want to say that “I am the owner” of the article. Any user may improve it. But if you have something to add, cite credible sources.
4. Bear in mind that when it is said “French Antilles”, it specifficaly refers to Martinique and Guadeloupe, and not to any French-speaking Caribbean country.
5. Cape Verdean musicologists do not know exactly why zouk was quickly adopted in Cape Verde. They point out similarities between Cape Verde and the French Antilles, but it may also resulted from the eclectic music from France-based groups like Tam-tam 2000 and Cabo Verde Show, that had Cape Verdeans, Antilleans, but also French-speking-countries Africans.
6. The cola-zouk and the kizomba derive from zouk, but not from Haitian music. Even if you can trace back some Kompa influence in zouk, present day zouk is a different music genre from kompa.
7. Passada is not a music genre. It is a way of dancing kizomba.
8. Not regarding this article, but your edits claiming that semba originated in Haitian music are purely nonsense! Semba exists for centuries, and it is probably older than Haitian music itself!

I suggest you to listen a bit more to Cape Verdean music, and also to read, for instance, Aspectos evolutivos da música cabo-verdiana (Tavares, M. J. — 2005) and Kab Verd Band (Gonçalves, C. — 2006). If you insist in putting wrong and unsourced information, I will be forced to report it as vandalism.

Ten Islands (talk) 14:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Ten Islands: Let me start by saying that I have an extensive knowledge on cape verdean music and culture. si bu kre ami sta skrebi so na kriolo..... Zouk which was derived from Haitian compas (mind you Haiti is a French speaking Caribbean island) prior to the 80's the antilles was playing compas/kompa music. The french based zouk artist/influence you speak of was Antillean descendants who popularized their music (i.e. zouk) in France.. Zouk is 100% Antillean but its roots come from compas music.. you should research Coupé Cloué who was one of the main artists that introduced Africa to compas music. Also research Tabou Combo These guys are the biggest influence when it comes to Kassav. Keep in mind Kassav introduced the world to the zouk sound. Between Tabou Combo who were extremely popular through out the Caribbean and Africa and Europe. They set the tone for the upcoming phenomenon of acts like Kassav and the rest. Im sure Manu Lima of Cabo Verde show and the rest of them would remember those names distinctively. as far as the Semba maybe my wording was off i did not want to indicate that semba came from kompa I wanted to indicate how some of the influences from kompa were incorporated in Semba during those times. In Angola they say that Funana comes from Semba now tell me is that so? And for a final thought my library of cape verdean music ranges in thousands and have music of all genres of your country and all generations from old cabo verde show to tubaroes(excuse the spelling) ami nunca fala di kuzas ki mi ka sabe so kuzas ki mi sabe.. historia di terras africano e un sujeto ki mi gosta.. y ki mi sabe muito bem..by the way i have sourced the info added.. and i will let you know once i get the rest of the sourced information so we can have further discussions. Also the predominant influence in coladeira in its early days was Samba prior to the compas and zouk influence

Well, I stand correctly: after you citing some names of Cape Verdean music (and saying some words in creole), maybe you do know some things about Cape Verdean music. But according to your arguements you do not have “extensive knowledge” of it. You are confusing a lot of things.
First, the source you’ve put in (www.smso.net/Coladeira), turned up to nothing. Not even the main page of that adress is about music or whatsoever.
Second, you are completely confusing what is considered the “true” coladeira, with the “zouk-copy” coladeira. For some musicians they are even different music genres.
The older coladeira (played by bands or artists like, Voz de Cabo Verde, Ritmos cabo-verdianos, Tubarões, Kings, Bulimundo, Paulino Vieira, Tito Paris, Finaçon, etc.) appeared in the 30’s, and it has allways been very ecclectical in absorbing foreign influences (samba, bossa-nova, salsa (listen to Mendes & Mendes), cumbia (listen to Luís Morais), several African music genres (listen to Kaboguiamo and Conjunto Kolá) and even Anglo-saxonic pop or rock music (listen to the first LP from Vlu)). Haitian music?!? Punctual, not influential.
The zouk-style coladeira (played by bands or artists like Livity, Rabelados, Gil Semedo, Phillipe Monteiro and several others) appeared in the 80’s, and it was a direct influence of bands like Kassav’, Zouk Machine, Expérience 7 and so on. Period.
Third, can you cite some examples? Can yo give an example of some well-known Cape Verdean music or song in which one can see Haitian music inflence, so we can discuss it? I don’t think so. Can you cite some written works about Cape Verdean music citing Haitian music influence? Or even some historical cultural exchanges between Cape Verde and Haiti? I don’t think so, either.
You certainly know more about Haitian music than me, but the present-day zouk is something completely different than Kompa. Rock is also derived from blues, but today they are different music genres.
You certainly know that, but I’ll say it anyway: the cola-zouk is for the coladeira the same that the kizomba is for the semba: music genres that have appeared from the merging of zouk with older music genres (coladeira and semba respectively). Don’t bring up funaná to this discussion. Funaná is something completely different.
All things said, if you can’t come up with some credible sources about your theories, I will be forced to revert your edits.
Ten Islands (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Ten Islands: I agree with you as far as the true coladeira music, but there were influences of Compas (kompa) music in coladiera as you had previously stated in the original article. The article has been update with 3 sources.... But yes i definately am familiar with those artists you have stated above. Though Zouk evolved into a genre on its own, its past and now current times still reverts back to kompa in many ways. Compas is not Zouk just like Zouk is not Compas. But Zouk was birthed from Compas music. As stated before there are two notable Haitian Compas artists who had extensive influence throught out Africa Coupé Cloué and Tabou Combo whom dominated the scenes of the Caribbean, Latin America, Europe, and Africa..THe biggest inlfuence!! Also to clarify something you stated.. The term "French Zouk" a label that CApe Verdeans gave zouk.. Zouk is 100% Antilles..Thats like refering to Kizomba as Portuguese Kizomba.. That is an incorrect termonology. Zouk from thorught out the 80's and early 90's was always sang in Créole. Antillian artist began singing in French in the mid 90's to main stream the genre of music.. Also note that there is a large Antillian diaspora in France.. Also may i reiterate to you that KAssav popularized this genre around the world, and all their music was always and till this day sang in Créole. Haiti, Martinique, Gaudeloupe, Dominica, Guiana, St. Lucia, St. Martin, St. Barts are all Créole islands in their own respect...The Antillian artists chose to sing in French in order to reach a wider demographically diverse audience (i.e. the French/Brancos) Coladiera is its own style that i agree. older coladiera had a strong brazilian Samba influence.. If you would like i will gladly send you different generations of coladeira to confirm this and also i will gladly send you original compas (kompa), and Zouk to reiterate the influences and the changes. I respect cultura di cabo verde.. ami sempre xinti ke cabo verde e un terra di un cultura bonita ten tcheu respeti pa nhos.. I am just a Deejay that appreciates all music and its origins..by all means please email me at Dj.iET.Music@Gmail.com for further discussion Dj iET (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the kind words. Nevertheless, I can’t agree with your edits. In the 70’s, some music from Haiti was heard in Cape Verde (I remember, when I was a kid, of a lady accompanied by a man playing organ, I don’t know her name, she had a song named “kamyonèt” or something like that..), but it never was influential as Brazilian music (not necessarely samba) or zouk have been to Cape Verdean music. If you say that zouk has its origins in Kompa, maybe you’re right, but if you ask to the majority of Cape Verdeans what Kompa is, they will probably answer: “What is what?” Kompa is hardly known in Cape Verde.
It seems to be a misundersatnding here. I’ve never spoken about a “French zouk”. What I said is that the zouk influence in Cape Verdean music came from France, and not from Martinique and Gaudeloupe. Antillean musicians, for sure, but living in France, not in the Antilles.
Also, you don’t believe that you need to send some examples of coladeiras to me, I know some. But, please, can you cite a song or a singer (or band), in which you supposedly say that we can notice Haitian influence? Something well known? Not only for me, but for anyone interested in this discussion. At least, there, we’ll have a solid material to discuss with. And, please, can you cite a credible source (music books, musicologists reports, music encyclopedias, etc.) that talk about an alleged Haitian influence in cape Verdean music?
Ten Islands (talk) 16:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To: Ten Islands I do agree with you that compas did not have as big of an influence as did samba and zouk that is undeniable. My point was more just in a sense paying hommage to all genres of music that gave a cultural donation to newer or newer forms of music I agree with you to a degree that most Cape Verdeans that hear Kompa today would just refer to it as zouk.. But I would say that is more of the Cape Verdeans living in C.V. today. If you ask the Cape Verdean Diaspora in France, Boston, New York, even Rhode Island they would know. Thanks to Kassav when they introduced the world to zouk with their hit single "Zouk la se sel medikamen" they made it clear what the genre of music was called and what it was about. which was a very smart and very profitable/historical move. kudos to them. Old kompa songs played music but the biggest hits did not have the name of the genre in it. For example in Panama Haitian music is simply called "Haitiano". I actually have a few credible sources of information coming soon. Once i obtain and verify the legitimacy of them all i will gladly shareDj iET (talk) 13:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, Dj iET and TenIslands. I'm writing this to inform that I requested the protection of this article at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Please resolve the issue here on the talk page instead of undoing each other's edits, that clogs up the history logs and brings no benefit to the wiki. I see you've already started the discussion here, so please continue with it until you reach a consensual version. I'd help if I considered myself an authority in the matter, but unforunately my only knowledge of coladeira is from listening it, as I never studied the subject or read about its origins. Cheers, Waldir ^talk 15:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Ten Islands & Waldir: I agree me and Ten Islands are very opinionated.. lol but thats what makes learning fun and interesting.. I am still researching data for viable resources. i will refrain from undoing the article. Dj iET (talk) 16:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had requested the user Dj iET to cite sources, something that he hasn’t done so far. I had already requested the protection of the article, but my request was denied. What else do you suggest? Cheers. Ten Islands (talk) 14:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that we wait for Dj iET to bring his sources. He said he would "refrain from undoing the article", but 1h later he performed an undo. I see you've just reverted him, Ten. According to the policy, Dj iET, you should not insert disputed information without a source. If you undo Ten's reversion again without providing any sources, I'll ask again that the article be protected. But I think we can all agree to not touch the article from now on until a consensus is reached here on this thread. --Waldir ^talk 19:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided sources to verify my undo. Also Ten Islands if you remember correctly the original article you credited haitian music as well but then deleted it.. i provided two more sources to back it.. Also referring to your sources haitian music did have some influence as you expressed earlier. i think that deserves its credits as much as all other caribbean/south american influences mentioned.Dj iET (talk) 12:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Dj. Sorry for these days of absence, but it gave me some time to think how to answer to you correctly.

I just can’t accept your edits at all. Perhaps I am mistaken, but analyzing your edits in this article and others it seems that you want to force information saying that any African music derives from Haitian music. Talking about coladeira, specifically, you don’t have any source to back up your statements. I have been asking you to cite some sources, and what you have done so far is showing Internet pages that are a copy of this article!!! Not independent sources.

But let’s talk about music. Why do you think that coladeira has anything to do with kompa? I asked you to cite some well-known songs in order to us to have some material to discuss, but you haven’t done it so far. I don’t know if you know enough Cape Verdean songs to do that. But you certainly know our more internationally known singer: Cesária Évora. Tell me, which song that she sings you may say that is related to Haitian music? If you could cite some of them, you would be providing some material to, not just you and I, but to anybody analyze your arguments. If you can’t say exactly where you think there is a relation between coladeira and kompa, we do not have a ground for discussion.

I don’t know kompa very well. But could you help me describing scientifically and musically what kompa is? Or how kompa is? For instance, how is the beat of kompa? What is its tempo? I’ve tried to provide a graphic sample of the rhythmic model of coladeira and zouk. Could you do the same for kompa? How is the harmonic structure of kompa? Is there a typical chord progression? Or perhaps the music is not based on chords but in counterpoints, like West African music? How is the melodic line? Does it vary a lot? Is it with a steady beat? Is it syncopated? How are the verses? Long? Short? How is the whole song organized? With strophes? With repeating refrains? With call-response? And the lyrics, what are their main themes? What are the subjects? Love songs? Political songs? Sad songs? Happy songs? How is the instrementation? Which of each of these characteristics of kompa you can relate to coladeira? If you can’t answer to all that and neither cite sources, we don’t have a ground for discussion.

And most important, since when there was contact between Cape Verde and Haiti, enough to have cultural exchanges? Never! If you don’t agree with me, cite your sources. As I said before, in the 60’s and 70’s, there was some eclecticism in coladeira, since music from several parts of the world was heard in Cape Verde: music from Africa (semba from Angola, ngumbe from Guinea-Bissau), from Latin America (rumba and salsa from Cuba, cumbia from Colombia, merengue from the Dominican Republic, samba, bossa nova from Brazil) and even from Europe and United States (pop/rock, jazz), but Haitian music was not influential like, for instance, Brazilian music. As I said before, in the 80’s there was a huge influence of zouk. Of zouk, precisely, not “any kind” of Antillean music. Of zouk played in France, not “music from the Antilles”. As I said before, these are two separate moments, and some people even consider the zouk-influenced coladeira as a completely different music genre (but I don’t want to discuss this here). Do not mix these two moments up. If you can’t prove that, at any time, there was a cultural contact between the two countries, we don’t have material to keep up this discussion.

I don’t want to seem rude to you, since you haven’t been impolite so far, by the contrary. But if you insist in putting wrong and unsourced information, I will be forced to report you… Cheers.

Ten Islands (talk) 06:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Ten Islands

I agree with you in the respect of major influences. but when you originally wrote the article and you cited yourself of the influence of haitian kompa in the 60's and 70's in coladeira.. Also just to reiterate the zouk that was being played in france was antillean artists living abroad in France. Cola Zouk began in the early 90's as did Afro Zouk etc.. Zouk was being played amongst French Caribbean people far before its huge success with Kassav whom introduced the world to the zouk rythm. Now you mention Cuban music and Dominican merengue which if you really look into that music Rumba which is a derivative of Son Cubano One of the influences was Tumba Francesca (i.e. Haitian music Prior to Haiti's independence when the French slave owners left Haiti with their Haitian slaves) Merengue which till this day is argued over which side of Hispaniola created the music is as much to Haiti as it is D.R. I myself am not familiar with proper musical termonology the similarities in certain coladeira can be identified by anyone with ears. I do agree that Brazilian music and Semba had the biggest influence on Coladeira but Haiti has its fair share. I mentioned earlier groups such as ===Tabou Combo=== who were touring France and Africa prior to the success of Zouk (notably Kassav) Another Haitian Compas musician to have popularity through out Africa (notably West Africa) is Coupé Cloué a.k.a. Roi du Compas. look that up. I believe you referenced the Kompa via the book "Brito, M., Breves Apontamentos sobre as Formas Musicais existentes em Cabo Verde — 1998" if I am not mistaken. (please correct me if i am wrong) i am not trying to impose Haitian music I am simply stating the reality and credit that is due.. If you noticed the article was left exactly how you originally had it with the mention of kompa music. i am not trying to sabbotage your work. just editing a small piece of information that is needed. By the way in reference the Gamboa Festival and the other major festivals that occur in Cabo Verde where do you think alot of the musicians came from in the 1950's? i will find that particular article for you. And ultimately speaking Zouk was derived from Kompa music.. think of this comparison in Trinidad they created Calypso from Calypso came Soca if you listen to the two the listen to Kompa then zouk you will understand how music evolves and is altered. Also simply to compare Cape Verde and Haiti Haiti is a French Caribbean Island that speaks the largest Créole language in the world (national language: Créole and French) And the ties between Haiti and Latin America (i.e. Latinos) and also the other French Caribbean islands is obvious and well understood. Haiti dominate the French CAribbean music scene prior to Zouk music. So where do you think the music went to.. Europe, All throughout Latin America etc etc. Please note a new reference.. A book (in French).. This is all healthy and good discussion.. I do agree with you with using factual references to back up the facts.. kudos Dj iET (talk) 17:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to ask to certain two editors to stop vandalizing this page. The information those two editors are insistingly putting is untrue and unsourced:

1. Cape Verdean music has nothing to do with Haitian Music. Who said that? Where are your sources? Can you prove it? Can you explain it in technical and musical terms? When did Cape Verde ever had connections with Haiti?!?
2. From the 90's forward the coladeira suffered some influence from what is called "zouk" in Cape Verde. The word "compas" or "konpa" or whatever is not known in Cape Verde. The refference for this kind of music is the group Kassav', in France. Not antillean groups in Martinique and Guadeloupe and certainly not Haitian groups wherever.
3. Your alleged "source" doesn't bring anything new. Your alleged "source" clearly states that the influence was from zouk. Your alleged "source" clearly states that zouk is a mixture from other musical genres. Your alleged "source" never says that zouk = kompa.
4. Even if someday someone manages to prove that zouk is the same that kompa, this page is about coladeira and not about a debate whether zouk is derived from kompa or zouk is the same as kompa. Your alleged "source" consistenly uses "zouk", and not any other name. Please, go discuss that matter elsewhere.
5. Please, do not delete images. That's vandalism. The image you so kindly deleted is the proof that the rhythm of colá-zouk is the same as the rhythm of zouk.
6. Please, do not make up words. Where in the world have you ever seen the word "cabo konpa"??? The words used in Cape Verde are "colá-zouk" or "cabo-zouk".
7. Stop referring Tito Paris! Tito Paris has always played the traditional coladeira, never the zouk-influenced coladeira. The fact that you are using an example of "A" to proove your arguments in "B" clearly shows that you don't know Cape Verdean music!!!

87.103.114.48 (talk) 10:38, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To Pintade

It's not me who is deleting information. It's you. What I am doing is only restoring the information which was present before you start messing up with your edits (check the editing history). What you are doing is pure vandalism, destroying the work that was done, showing that you don't know anything about Cape Verdean music! You destroyed the original structure of the text which distinguished (in sections) between History (the evolution along the time) and variants (different forms of coladeira).

In a nutshell, the History of coladeira:

1. 1930's to 1950's: Formation — coladeira appeared speeding up the morna.
2. 1960's to 1980's: Consolidation — experiences through foreign musical genres: yéyé, cumbia, samba, merengue, fox-trot, baião, mambo, carnival marches (according to Monteiro, 1987), merengue, chachachá, twist, swing, cumbia, fox, samba, bossa nova (according to Tavares, 2005), cumbia, merengue, semba, rock, samba (according to Gonçalves, 2005). According to Mário Lúcio[1], the coladeira is "the most eclectic musical genre of Cape Verde due to its ability to adapt to other musical genres".
3. 1990's forward: Innovation — influence from zouk.

Sources?

Jorge Fernandes Monteiro in "Mornas e Contra-tempos — Coladeiras de Cabo Verde" (own edition; Mindelo, 1987);

Vladimir Monteiro in "Les musiques du Cap-Vert" (Chandeigne, Paris, 1998);

Manuel Tavares in "Aspectos Evolutivos da Música Cabo-Verdiana" (Centro Cultural Português, Praia, 2005);

Carlos Gonçalves in "Kab Verd Band" (Instituto do Arquivo Histórico Nacional, Praia, 2006).

More sources? Listen to pre-1960 recordings (if you manage…); listen to Voz de Cabo Verde (the first formation) and list to Voz de Cabo Verde (the second formation — not the same group!); and then listen to Livity or Rabelados.

As it can be seen there is a confusion between the 1960's–1980's period (where it might have some groups which occasionally played a music from Haiti — punctual, I’ve found only two) and the 1990's– period (where the only foreign influence was zouk — overwhelming and omnipresent).

Also confusion between the second period (1960's–1980's) where, in spite of punctual foreign influences, the coladeira kept its identity, and the third period where everything changed, there was a clear split between coladeira and colá-zouk.

Then, there is the different types (forms) of music which are called "coladeira". Do not confuse it with the History! In a nutshell:

names	coladeira, coladeira proper	coladeira, coladeira lenta, toada, contratempo	colá-zouk, cabo-zouk, cabo-love, etc.
speed	variable, between 106 and 120 bpm	less variable, 96 bpm	very variable, 86 to 130 bpm; the slower (and romantic) varieties are called "cabo-love", which is a clear copy of "zouk-love"; there is no such thing as "konpa-love"
rhythm	"steady"; accentuation of the beats; this is the main difference between coladeira and colá-zouk and what helps to identify one against the other	"steady"; all the semiquavers are marked	"jumpy"; three hits in a 2-beat bar; in Cuban music this is called tresillo
bass	marks the beats, alternating between the tonic and the dominant	marks the first beat and the last quarter beat, alternating between the tonic and the dominant	free
chords	played rhythmically, in a pattern similar to morna	played rhythmically, marking all the semiquavers	played rhythmically"; three hits in a 2-beat bar; in Cuban music this is called tresillo
chord progression	based on cycle of fifths	based on cycle of fifths	free
melodic line	sweeping melodic lines, more note variation (generally); long verses (generally), short notes (generally)	sweeping melodic lines, more note variation (generally); long verses (generally), short notes (generally)	steady melodic lines, less note variation (generally); short verses (generally), long notes (generally)
instrumentation (acoustic)	guitars, cavaquinho, shaker, guiro	guitars, cavaquinho, shaker, guiro	— (not played acoustic)
instrumentation (electric)	bass guitar, electric guitar (imitating the cavaquinho), drum set, percussion (mainly idiophones; membranophones are optional), synthesizer with decorative function	bass guitar, electric guitar (imitating the cavaquinho), drum set, percussion (idiophones)	bass guitar, electric guitar, drum set, optional percussion, massive use of synthesizer with structural function

This roughly describes the difference between the three forms. The section "Melodic structure" has been systematically vandalized with the erasing of the information that states that the influence of zouk has modified the melodic line. The section "Variants of the coladeira" has been systematically vandalized with the erasing of the information that shows that there are three types of coladeira, not two.

Sources? Beside all my own experience over the years playing in bands?

Jorge Fernandes Monteiro in "Mornas e Contra-tempos — Coladeiras de Cabo Verde" (own edition; Mindelo, 1987)

Manuel Tavares in "Aspectos Evolutivos da Música Cabo-Verdiana" (Centro Cultural Português, Praia, 2005)

Carlos Gonçalves in "Kab Verd Band" (Instituto do Arquivo Histórico Nacional, Praia, 2006)

Where are your technical arguments? Where are your musical arguments? You don't seem to be a musician or anyone else who has the knowledge to discuss in a technical level.

Finally, this is an article about coladeira. Any discussion wether zouk and konpa are the same or different should be done elsewhere. In Cape Verde, the music from Guadeloupe and Martinique and its offshoot in Cape Verde is called "zouk". Sources?
Manuel Tavares in "Aspectos Evolutivos da Música Cabo-Verdiana" (Centro Cultural Português, Praia, 2005);
Carlos Gonçalves in "Kab Verd Band" (Instituto do Arquivo Histórico Nacional, Praia, 2006) "A partir de 1977 regista-se primeiro a influência da música da Martinica (…) depois é o Zouk (…).";
In "Cabo Verde, 30 Anos de Cultura" (Instituto da Biblioteca Nacional e do Livro, Praia, 2005), in page 119, the zouk is pointed out as the main problem of the conservation of the tradition (zouk, not konpa or whatever);
Mário Lúcio, in an interview, says that the zouk has been nativized by Cape Verdeans;
The "Cabo Verde Music Awards" contest has an official category that is called "Cabozouk / Cabolove" (and not cabokonpa or whatever!);
As it can be seen in this blog, Cape Verdeans separate their music between the "more traditional" morna, coladeira, funaná, batuque, etc. and the "more modern" zouk, cabo-love, etc.

Where are your sources? In what credible source have you seen that we, Cape Verdeans, call it konpa or whatever? In what credible source have you seen any reference about Haiti and Cape Verdean music?

And, most importantly, please do not say that coladeira is a derivative of konpa. It is offensive to us, Cape Verdeans, besides being a complete nonsense fabricated with no sources.

188.37.81.120 (talk) 02:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent vandalism? Dear fellow

I am very curious to know what do you exactly mean by "offensive" and "vandalism"?

In addition I am forced to tell you the truth: You have no clue about the so-called zouk music. Therefore I invite you to read the zouk and zouk love articles; then review the COMPAS and the CADENCE RAMPA articles. I am sure you will have a change of heart and learn more about propaganda.

If you haven't learned anything significant I will be pleased to provide you with some credible references on Haitian music. Do yourself a favor; please read these articles and do not forget to explain what you mean by offensive and vandalism here.

Looking forward to hearing from you

RegardsPintade (talk) 01:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The reasons why the word compas or konpa may not be known in Cape Verde is because of a technicality. If Zouk music had been viewed closely enough and its sources on its page have been read thoroughly, one would find that:

• "today, zouk is the French Antilles compas music, also called zouk-love."^[1]

• "Whether it is incorrectly called zouk where French Antilles artists of Martinique and Guadeloupe have taken it or compas in places where Haitian artists have toured, this méringue style is very influential in the Caribbean, Africa, Cape Verde, Portugal, France, part of Canada, South and North America."^[2][3][4]

This would mean that Coladeira's third strand INDEED has compas rhythms. Also, another common error I've noticed are the lack of knowledge between the Caribbean merengues (yes, plural). There is both the merengue and the méringue that originate from the Hispaniola island (Haiti, and the Dominican Republic). Méringue usually does not carry the accordian, and uses much guitar instead and is played at a much slower beat. Now, compas (or konpa in Haitian Creole) is the modern méringue. So many times I have seen D.R.'s merengue get credit by the way of the French Antilles to African countries. Now, how is that possible? Well, merengue is also used as the English spelling for méringue hence the confusion here. Zouk is just another one of those confusions and many times it surprises people that Haitians have contributed in some way to their music when really they shouldn't. If this was a Cuban music topic, I doubt there would be an issue of outcry many of you are holding so dear, obviously striking personal chords. Ironically, Haiti's kontradans influenced many Cuban genres today, when Haitians worked on their plantations for three centuries, and we all know how much their music has supposedly influence many genres. The kontradans is found not only in their music but in countless music genres of the world today. Yet, I am still working on this masterpiece.

Also, there is such a thing called compas-love or konpa-love, it's called zouk-love, which is only a romantic type compas! Nothing more. Clearly there is a lack of knowledge of its origins and its nobody's fault except for the fault that lies in the technicality.

(Click here [2] to view compas-love's image; and here [3]; here also [4])

• "Zouk béton...is very rhythmic, with a fast and upbeat tempo. The latter style was made famous by Kassav', but has gradually lost its popularity..."[5] So this new genre named Zouk (as it was short for), ditched the new sound and reverted back to kadans, which is a variant Haitian compas made popular by Haiti's Webert Sicot to the rest of the French Antilles. Zouk béton is not in Coladeira in the fast and upbeat tempo speed. So, it stops here. Cola-zouk etc. are just variants of compas which is being past as zouk in the rest of the French West Indies and in some of your cases, the rest of the world. On their part it was a savvy move to continue using compas/kadans under a different name of their own. It continued their fame which could have been shorter lived, or perhaps never elevated to the type of status if they hadn't stuck to what was known to them, and that was kadans/konpa/compas.

So my point here is simple; dig deeper in your research.

By the way, I too had disagreements with Pintade at first, but realized that he was correct on many occasions. We now have friendly debates, but are still intense (do not get me wrong) and in turn continue to open each others eyes. Now, I have gathered a lot of material that hopefully can clear up a lot of this uncertainty but the material is excessive and will take time; even for me. Pintade is actually doing his best to ward off vandalists that do not realize they are vandalizing. While some references are questionable, realize that all of these pages are not good articles yet and are still under construction. As I said before, I hope to help continue with the credible citations. Thanks for the time. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I had the time to assemble these materials. I am a very busy person beating into so many things and I am writing a book on "meringue" therefore I have prevented myself from giving too much of what is already in the book.

Thank you! you got it right Pintade (talk) 11:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged as dubious the claim that "There is a strong compas influence in Cape Verdean music." First off, the citation-- p. 95 of Peter Manuel Popular Musics of the Non-Western World-- doesn't actually mention compas. It states a strong "French Caribbean pop" influence on coladeira, but that could be any of a number of genres. Compas is not the only French Caribbean music. Furthermore, this section of Manuel's book is speaking specifically about coladeira, and yet the sentence it is being used to support is speaking about Cape Verdean music in general. Not all Cape Verdean music is coladeira. We have to be very careful that we are not distorting our sources to say more than they're actually saying. On a related note, Manuel spells it "coladera" and yet in the citation it had been corrected to "coladeira". It is usually a very bad idea to alter a quotation, even if you're just "fixing" an "obvious" error. A quotation should present the words as they were actually spoken and written. In the citation in question, I have changed it back to "coladera" and added a [sic] after it to convey that this is how Manuel wrote it.Tigercompanion25 (talk) 17:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]