Talk:Axis powers

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is country X included in the list of Axis countries in the infobox? A1: Because reliable sources, cited in the article, describe it as an Axis country. If you think that a country presently included in this list should NOT be included in it, please describe why reliable sources do not support it being included here, and if possible provide sources backing up this position. Particularly in the case of Finland, this has been discussed many, many times, so please review the talk-page archive to see if you have any new points to raise on this topic. Q2: Why is country X NOT included in the list of Axis countries included in the infobox? A2: Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included. If you think a country should be added to the list, please provide reliable sources that clearly and unambiguously state that they were members of the Axis. Please note that particularly Vichy France, Iraq, Spain, the Soviet Union, and the various puppet-states of the Axis outside of the ones that are included in this list have been discussed a large number of times here, so please review the discussions before opening a new discussion to see if the point you want to make has already been discussed. Q3: Why aren't only Tripartite Pact signatories included as Axis members in the infobox? A3: Because this article is not about the Tripartite Pact, which has its own article. Similarly, it is also not about the Anti-Comintern Pact. Instead it is about the Axis, which reliable sources describe as having a membership different to that of the Tripartite Pact and the Anti-Comintern Pact. Q4: Why aren't puppet states and colonies included as Axis members in the infobox? A4: Some puppet states may be included as members of the Axis powers where there are reliable sources stating that this is what they were, however, where no source says that a country was a member of the Axis, simply having been a puppet state or colony of a member of the Axis is insufficient to make it a member of the Axis if reliable sources do not describe it as such. Q5: Why are other states, that were not members of the Axis, discussed in the body-text of the article? A5: States and movements that had notable relations with the Axis, for example states the leadership of which gave serious consideration to joining the Axis, should be discussed to the extent relevant. Relevance should be decided in consensus with other editors - if in doubt, please discuss on the talk page here. Q6: Why was membership of the Axis, as listed in the infobox, decided to only include those clearly and unambiguously described as being members of the Axis in reliable sources? A6: In a discussion on the talk page in January 2021 it was decided to remove all countries which no reliable sources clearly described as being a member of the Axis. The reasoning was that by including countries that no reliable source actually identified as Axis powers but which some editors had characterised as "Axis co-belligerents", a term with no basis in reliable sources, we were essentially engaging in original research and going outside the topic of the article, which is about the Axis powers and not about wars fought parallel to the wars fought by the Axis. Q7: I disagree with the criteria used to determine what should be included as a member of the Axis in this article! A7: Consensus can change, please feel free to open a discussion here about how you think the article should address the question of which states should be included as members of the Axis in this article. Please also review the prior discussions in the archive to see whether your proposed way of deciding Axis membership has already been discussed.

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It is requested that a global map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.

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Why is Iraq not listed in the infobox? They were a full-fledged member of the Axis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Iraqi_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat Ironzombie39 (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The FAQ at the top says "Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included." As discussed previously, co-belligerents of the Axis are not considered members of the Axis and hence do not go in the infobox. The question of including Iraq in the infobox has also been discussed multiple times (see the archives), and consensus has also been against inclusion. Liu1126 (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

so we add Finland and croatia but not iraq?

I don't get your logic here Sanad real (talk) 03:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

iraq is literally blue on the map on the allies article Sanad real (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Sanad real. On Wikipedia, facts that can be challenged (which definitely includes which states were Axis powers) need to be clearly supported by reliable sources. Wikipedia, including the map on the page about the Allies, is not a reliable source.

For Iraq, there is no source saying it was ever a member of the Axis powers. If we look at what the sources say, we can see that it is not clearly considered to have been an Axis power during the few months that Rashid Ali was in power. For example, this source points out that Germany and Italy had no desire to make deals with Arab states since Italy wanted the Middle East as part of its empire and Germany saw the Arab states as a distration from its upcoming invasion of the USSR. The source also states that no formal alliance was ever concluded.

For Finland and Croatia, there are ample sources stating that they were members of the Axis powers which you can find in the article. For Iraq those sources don't appear to exist. If you are aware of a reliable source that clearly and unambiguously describes Iraq as a member of the Axis powers, please let us know. FOARP (talk) 07:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the map of participants in the info-box, it contains inaccuracies:

• The USSR is listed as having switched sides from the Axis to the Allies, which is in between complete falsehood and utter lunacy. Neither the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact nor the joint-but-time-offset German-Soviet invasion of Poland ever made the USSR a member of the Axis, especially not de jure.

• Ethiopia is listed as having switched sides, but how can a colonial government (Italian East Africa) "switch sides" when it was disbanded altogether and replaced with a British military administration?

• If Ethiopia is listed as having switches sides, then Italy should have certainty been included in the list as well, but it was not. The situation with the Italian Social Republic complicates the matter, but since France is already dealt with separately (on the map) in terms of Vichy France and German-occupied France, the same could be done with Italy (showing the Italian Social Republic borders at establishment in blue, and the rest of Italy in blue but with a "switched sides from the Axis to the Allies" marker).

212.243.68.210 (talk) 12:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Ethiopia went from being an Italian colony to one that had been liberated and Ethiopia's full sovereignty was restored with the signing of the Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement in December 1944 (duing Ww2). Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  We do not list the USSR as a member of the Axis. Slatersteven (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The map is garbage. It might well be better not to have it. FOARP (talk) 10:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  This is not the first time problems with the map have been raised. Other discussions where problems with the map have been raised include:

  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_13#inaccuracies_in_the_map
  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_12#Map
  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_12#Map_2
  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_6#The_map_from_https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/WWII.png/280px-WWII.png
  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_5#The_map_shows_the_Axis_powers_wrong._Finland_was_not_a_part_of_the_Axis,_as_also_the_Allied_leaders_concluded_in_Tehran
  • Talk:Axis_powers/Archive_5#Map_is_a_poor_descriptive_image_for_the_subject_matter
    

  For this reason I am removing the map as a WP:BOLD move simply because it is not a good illustration for this article. FOARP (talk) 13:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Don't care about the map, but this article cannot have the same lead image as Tripartite Pact. It will only further conflation. Srnec (talk) 03:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm fine with this change. If there were a colour poster or similar then that would be even better but I'm not aware of one. PS - this looks good, but we'd need a hi-res copy, and to be sure that it's free-to-use (it probably is, but that's not good enough). FOARP (talk) 10:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC) FOARP (talk) 10:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was an extensive discussion about why the infobox only included actual members of the Axis. It's now been changed back to its previous format without any discussion as far as I can see. This is not a Paradox game or online games forum like NationStates, we need sources to describe a country positively as having been one of the Axis powers, not whatever idea someone has just come up with on their own about what the Axis was.

The second world war is almost certainly the most written-about subject in world history. If you cannot find a source explicitly stating that a country was one of the Axis powers (or similar language) then please consider that it may not have been an Axis power, and that your idea of what the Axis powers were does not match what reliable sources say about it. It is, in fact, not easy to find reliable sources that list the members of the Axis beyond Germany, Japan, and Italy, and NONE of the sources we've reviewed so far that do try to provide exhaustive lists of Axis members include the countries that people typically want to add to the infobox - they don't include Vichy France, they don't include the USSR, they don't include Iraq, they don't include Iran, they don't include Manchuria. However, they DO typically include Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, and Romania, and (less often) Croatia, Slovakia Thailand. You can review the sources that list Axis powers in the article, but the convenience of anyone reading this page, here's the main ones:

• Facts About the American Wars, Bowman, p. 432 - This lists Albania, Bulgaria, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Romania, and Thailand. It discusses Croatia as well but is a bit ambiguous about whether it was an Axis member. It mentions Iraq but does not define it as having been a member of the Axis, but instead as a "puppet state" of the Allies. It explicitly describes Spain as having been neutral. There is no mention at all of Vichy France here.
• The Library of Congress World War II Companion, Wagner, Osborne, & Reyburn, p. 39 - this defines the Axis as including Germany, Italy, Japan, Croatia, Finland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia. Notably it does not mention Thailand. It also does not mention Iraq, Vichy France etc. as Axis countries.
• Germany and the Axis Powers, DiNardo, particularly p.92-3 - this book does contain a list as such, and primarily focuses on Europe, but the following countries are explicitly described as Axis powers throughout the book: Germany, Italy, Japan, Finland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria. It is more equivocal about Slovakia and Croatia, describing them as puppet countries - this does not mean they were not Axis powers in the view of the author, but neither confirms that they were. There is no mention of Iraq, Vichy France, and the usual suspects, in the context of describing who was part of the Axis.
  

I could understand someone, based on the Bowman reference, wanting to add Albania, but since this does not match what other sources say about Albania in WW2 I'm inclined not to. Similarly I could understand someone wanting to remove Thailand since only Bowman includes in their list, though other sources appear to support this (see the sources in the section about Thailand, including the Thai historical dictionary). I can even understand just limiting the Axis to Germany, Italy, and Japan since many books/articles do only talk about those countries as "the Axis". What I can't understand is constantly trying to add Iraq/Vichy/USSR/whatever without any sources at all. FOARP (talk) 09:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Albania was invaded and occupied, Thailand was not. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generally agree Steve, but more to the point: no other source I've seen says Albania was a member of the Axis so Bowman seems an outlier here. FOARP (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

R3YBOl (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I noticed that they removed kingdom of iraq from the axis states meanwhile after the success of the iraqi coup detat in 1941 Iraq joined the axis states, Someone who deleted the article of the kingdom of iraq in this page, So I hope you guys fix it and thank you for your service Here the article for making it easy to copy and paste

•  Kingdom of Iraq^[a]

Do you have evidence that they joined the Axis? The Banner talk 23:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Oxford commas. 64.189.18.44 (talk) 15:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Not clear what the request is. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. The Banner talk 16:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Allies of World War II#Maps. -- Beland (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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