Talk:Maronite Church

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Maronite Church article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Maronite Church was nominated as a Philosophy and religion good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (September 27, 2020). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Catholicism High‑importance Maronite Church is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.CatholicismWikipedia:WikiProject CatholicismTemplate:WikiProject CatholicismCatholicism articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. Catholicism task list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : see Draft articles Assess : see Category:Unassessed Catholicism articles; Category:Unknown-importance Catholicism articles Cleanup : Blessed Virgin Mary (see the talk page) Collaborate : Invitation template needed, see Category:WikiProject invitation templates Copyedit : Cuthbert Tunstall Expand : Angelus; Roman Catholicism in Kosovo; Bishop Adolph John Paschang; Cum sæpe accidere; Altar Society; American Board of Catholic Missions; Bernard Häring NPOV : Americanism (heresy); Ensoulment Photo : see Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of Catholicism Stubs : see Category:Stub-Class Catholicism articles; Category:Catholic Church stubs Update : Peer review; John Aloysius Maguire Verify : Archdiocese of Glasgow; Archbishop of Westminster; Bishop; Saint Mungo; Sanctification; Westminster Cathedral Other : Watch recent changes for Catholicism articles Christianity: Catholicism / Syriac Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism. This article is within the scope of the Syriac Christianity work group, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive. Lebanon High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lebanon-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Greece: Byzantine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Byzantine world task force.

It is incorrect that journalist Anthony Shadid is a Maronite Catholic. Mr. Shadid was raised in the Eastern Orthodox faith. The Shadid's of Oklahoma were Eastern Orthodox immigrants from Lebanon. Mr. Shadid continues to practice this faith.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.58.84.42 (talk • contribs)

The Crusades section had the following text: It was in the 16th century AD when Western religious groups started settling in Lebanon. The migration began in 1626 with the Capuchins, followed by the Jesuits. I believe 1626 is the 17th century AD, not 16th.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Maronite Church/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 20:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this one.

The article does not meet the good article criteria, and has been failed. The main issues are highlighted in the cleanup banner at the top of the article and as hatnotes within the article's main text. The cleanup banner reflects comments made during Talk:Maronite Church/GA1, which have not yet been addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The appropriate spelling for the saint's name is Maroun not 'Maron'. Those who have a proficiency in Arabic or Syriac will easily recognise this fact. However, a user who seems to be American-centric is erroneously claiming that the standard spelling is 'Maron' despite individuals who bear his name as their first name or family name have hold the spelling of 'Maroun' etc. Archbishop Maroun Ammar, Julian Maroun, Eddy Maroun. Furthermore, Lebanon has a village named Maroun al-Ras. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LebaneseMaronite (talk • contribs) 22:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@LebaneseMaronite: besides ignoring conventions of citation and neutral point of view on this Wiki, you have been persistent in altering the spelling of "Maron" to "Maroun." The standard spelling in English across the board is "Maron" when dealing with the holy man (with the particular exception of some Australian English). Conventions of Arabic-to-English transliteration are fluid and change frequently ("Moslem"–>"Muslim," "Mohamed"–>"Muhammed", etc.). Wikipedia's job is to be encyclopedic and thus defer to the usage most relevant to the article(s) at hand, and to do so consistently. As such, we are charged to avoid interchangeable usages within articles that might confuse people (such as the case here). Since you have cited a handful of villages–though not provided references–might I show you what evidence there is to the contrary of your point:

• Religious usage: Maronite Catholic Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn (1, United States), Maronite Catholic Eparchy of Saint Maron of Montreal (2, Canada), Saint Maron Parish, Youngstown, Ohio (3, United States), CNEWA (4, United States), St. Maron Parish, Minneapolis (5, United States), Cathedral of St. Maron, Montreal (6, Canada), Maronite Heritage blog (7, Australia)
• Academic/historic usage: Encyclopædia Brittanica (1 for St. Maron, 2 for St. John Maron), Encyclopedia of Cleveland History (3), Catholic Encyclopedia (4, uses predecessor transliteration "Maro"), The Maronite Foundation in the World (5)

The list goes on. I understand that it might be frustrating that a technically correct term is not the standard usage, particularly when it is your preferred use. However, the established precedent for using "Maron" as well as the wealth of examples of reference to St. Maron sans the "u" makes your commitment to an edit war on the subject more trouble than its worth. Unless you find consensus to support your position, please refrain from engaging in further reversion, alterations, or the like. Thanks ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

It appears that the existing sections of this Wikipedia page are scarce. At a minimum we should attempt to update and rewrite certain paragraphs, while adding new subheadings relating to topics that are yet to be discussed. Furthermore, a lot of statements in this page are ambiguous and could be expanded for clarity, for example, under the 'Latinization' heading it states Patriarch Stephan al-Duwayhî (1670–1704)... re-vitalized Maronite liturgical tradition. How? Expanding on important sections like this with referenced information will greatly benefit Maronites and non-Maronites alike.

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maronite98 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maronite98 kindly reached out to me off the wiki to discuss a general revision of this page to align it better with the modern consensuses on this topic. The objectives of this revision would be to remove/contextualize ethnopolitical POV issues, apocryphal narratives, and update with perspectives from experts both ecclesiastical and secular. As such, I encourage editors to review the below list of sources we intend to consult. The addition of further sources is greatly appreciated. A tentative completion date should be included, so I move for the end of June. Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:57, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• General history

• Stanley, History of the Eastern Church. 1884. Note: This source is rather old, supporting the consensus that the Maronites are part of the Syrian tradition, including liturgically.
• Attwater, A Catholic Dictionary (3rd ed.). 1962. Note: This source is somewhat more modern, but terribly limited in scope. Included material also greatly relevant to liturgy, including sourcing approving of Maronite liturgy as a distinct Syriac "rite," notable since Attwater was a proponent of the term "use" when applicable.
• Attwater, The Catholic Eastern Churches (Revised ed.). 1937. Note: Attwater's more general discussion of Maronite history can be found here. He is rather disapproving of the standard 20th-century intra-Maronite historical consensus.
• Labaki, The Maronites in the United States. 1993. Note: As the title suggests, almost exclusively about the American Maronite diaspora.

• Liturgy

• Attwater, Eastern Catholic Worship. 1945. Note: Less than comprehensive, but useful. An earlier source than his dictionary, Attwater identifies the Maronite liturgy less independent from the general Syriac liturgical family.
• Book of Offering. 2012. Note: Most recent approved pew-edition English translation of the Holy Qurbono. Preface material is hardly adequate for comprehensive study, but covers some of the developments post-1965.
• Qurbono: The Book of Offering [...] Season of the Glorious Birth of the Lord. 1993. Note: Earlier translation, merely useful as a high-level reference, but perhaps still applicable in a future article on the Maronite Rite.
• The Maronite Liturgical Year: Volume 1. 1982. Note: Includes minor preface noting lateral reversion to earlier Maronite practice. Again, would be largely useful on a new Maronite Rite page.
• Maxwell E. Johnson & Stefanos Alexopoulos, Introduction to Eastern Christian Liturgies. 2021. Note: A recent survey of Eastern Christian liturgies. Includes an analysis of the Maronite Liturgy and characterizes the Maronite Rite as a distinct rite from West Syriac. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maronite98 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]