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For multiple-unit barges hauling sand, gravel, iron ore, etc, the volume of which may vary considerably from day to day. The barge may consist of 4 units on Monday, but only one unit on Tuesday. My question is what is the trade term for each of those units to distinguish a unit from the barge as a whole?
PGU217.43.29.6911:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"People working on the river had different skills. Stumpy barges were designed to get close into the shore so that goods could be loaded and unloaded. They could also pass under London’s bridges and carry goods far up river."[reply]
I wonder if it may be worthwhile to point out that barges are also often used as floating work platforms in marine construction.
I seem to notice an omission of any reference to the Thames Sailing Barge which played a great roll in cargo carrying on the London river, and even at the Dunkirk evacuation.
Но вы выбросили то што я написал. Глядя на вас я тоже вышвырнул жалкие и никчемные триллионные доллары. Философия - вещь недосягаемая! Ведь лучше сдохнуть с голода. Если я правильно понял. Или чё ?
I clicked on "Bargee" in the personal life section of Ronnie Woods (Rolling Stones) page.
Wood was born in Hillingdon, west London, into a family of English "bargees" (river/canal barge operators, sometimes called "water gypsies"). He has said that his generation was the first in the family to be born on dry land.
The lead section of this article has seen many changes over the years, and in almost every case it had a number of faults. Maybe one of the issues is differences between US and European viewpoints? So what chance do I stand here in 2024? Nevertheless, here we go. The lead section as it stands reads as follows;
Barge (typically)* refers to a flat-bottomed vessel which does not have its own means of mechanical propulsion*. Original use was on inland waterways, while modern use is on both inland and marine water environments*. The first modern barges were pulled by tugs, but on inland waterways, most are pushed by pusher boats*, or other vessels. The term barge has a rich history, and therefore there are many types of barges.
typically - that was my first edit a few days back; just a holding action pending further analysis.
propulsion - in the USA it would appear that most/all barges are unpowered
but across the rest of the world the situation is more like 80% powered vs 20% unpowered, although I don't have a source for those actual numbers, just loads of pictures, and 40 years of TV documentaries.
and marine environments? - yes, I was surprised to find that the numbers of ocean-going barges are higher than I imagined. There are also some cases where barges start out in an inland freshwater river, but end up in a salt-water tidal river estuary, and maybe travel a short distance in the coastal waters beyond.
but on inland waterways, most are pushed by pusher boats - no! This is a US-centric viewpoint. In many parts of the world, unpowered barges are pulled by tugs, not pushed. I cannot tell you how the relative numbers shape up, but once again, a thousand photographs cannot all be wrong.
@Grieg2 - you have edited this article before - do you have any comments please (from a Dutch-European perspective?).
@WendlingCrusader I agree with most of what you say here. It is probably a US vs UK definition with the rest of the world following one or the other. Plus a matter of the meaning of the word changing over time.
Self-propelled barge Andromeda in canal at Hanover, Germany
I just moved the reference to Eurostat 2010 back to where it stood. It did not refer to the sentence: Original use was on inland waterways, while modern use is on both inland and marine water environments. This is probably an attempt to summarize the article, but is faulty. E.g. the terms Thames sailing barge and Dutch barge clearly refer to coastal vessels. So original use was also at sea, while I do not know about modern barges crossing e.g. the English Channel.
Typically - Is a good addition
Propulsion - I think that modern American use of the term 'barge' exclusively refers to what the Dutch would call a nl:Duwbak, but this should be verified. The Brits push and pull barges, which they call barge, or 'dumb barge'.Code of Practice for Craft Towage Operations on the Thames 2011. On the major European waterways, pushing is the norm.
80% powered vs 20% unpowered - I think this is were most of the confusion is. Should the Andromeda (image) be called a 'barge' or a 'self propelled barge' or neither? Do you know of any such vessels being in actual use in North America or the United Kingdom?
Marine environments - I do not know about ocean going barges
But on inland waterways, most are pushed by pusher boats - Pushing is the modern system (see above)
Awww, so cute! A small barge with an even smaller pusher tug, on the River Trent, UK
Do we have a different interpretation of 'coastal vessels'? The pop-up description for Dutch barge mentions the Zuiderzee, but shows a boat on a flat calm canal. The pop-up description for Thames sailing barge mentions the River Thames and the Thames Estuary. I do not consider any of this to be true 'marine' environment because in both cases we have not reached the North Sea. But I am open to persuasion.
If you are confirming that on major European waterways, pushing is the norm, then I am grateful for that input. On the Rhine, etc, I am only familiar with vessels like the Andromeda, which is a separate class, being self-propelled. In terms of 'dumb barges', the only image in the article that is not from the USA, is the image of a tug pulling barges on the Thames in London, which now appears to be unrepresentative. Maybe it should be removed?
80% vs 20% - indeed this is the most difficult to define. Just to be clear, I stated that 'most' (lets say 98%) of USA barges are not powered. The 80/20 split was purely for the rest of the world, with the majority powered. Do I know of any self-propelled barges in the UK. Yes, but not on the same scale as mainland Europe or China etc. In the UK, self-propelled are mostly the small 'narrowboat' design, almost exclusively for leisure activities. If you are looking for Industrial-size freight barges like the Andromeda, there will only be a handful across the country. The UK once led the way with the industrial revolution, but it is now just a dot on the industrial landscape. Just remember that nowhere in England is further than 80 miles (120km) from the sea!
Coastal vessels - I think we have the same interpretation. On the Dutch barge page, there is a (referenced!) mention of them regularly visiting London. On the Thames sailing barge page the type is said to have served from London to Newcastle and have crossed to Rotterdam and Calais.
For the Rhine / Waal etc. I've seen with my own eyes that: Vessels like Andromeda are still in the majority. However, there are now probably about as many Andromeda's that push a dumb barge in front of them. (Actually, the image 'Barge on Mosel by Kues (1).jpg' on the page shows a vessel pushing a custom dumb barge). The number of pure push boat/dumb barge combinations is smaller, but seems to be growing fast as many Dutch waterways are getting adapted for them. You can verify this on Google maps, e.g. on The Waal river it shows this situation. Google maps indicates that the situation on The Danube is the same.
The tug pulling barges on the Thames in London is indeed unrepresentative and not suitable for the top of the page. They are part of a line that only transports waste from the city to Essex. There seem to be attempts to use pushed barges on the Thames, but I don't know what came of it.
80% vs 20% You say: If you are looking for Industrial-size freight barges like the Andromeda, there will only be a handful across the country (the UK). AND (lets say 98%) of USA barges are not powered. Taken together, this seems to indicate that in the USA and UK 'barge' now indeed refers to a vessel that does not have (and was not designed) its own means of mechanical propulsion (i.e. dumb barge or pusher barge). Which would in turn mean that it would make sense to have a separate 'Self-propelled barge' page. Also see the definitons on page 76-77 of the referred Illustrated Glossary for Transport Statistics 4th Edition.
I found some modern self-propelled barges of the UK in the Wikimedia category Barges of the United Kingdom. They list a few vessels similar to Andromeda as being barge type, but then this is often followed by a description as Steel Motor Vessel e.g. Motor Vessel Gladys LillianGrieg2 (talk) 09:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barge on Mosel by Kues
Following your suggestion, I have just spent a good 15 minutes following the River Trent on Google earth, and found a total of seven self-propelled industrial barges (c. 100t or more). A more obvious location would probably be the Mersey / Manchester Ship Canal, but I am am not sure whether I would be able to distinguish a barge from a normal ship of similar size using satellite images. The only other rivers of any size in the UK are the Thames and the River Clyde, and I cannot imagine ships of any size navigating more than 10-15km along either.
As regards the Barge at Kues, thank you - I would not have seen that in a hundred years! From a civilian land-lubber's viewpoint, that combination-unit seems to be in another category again. The dumb-barge at the front appears to be a custom fit, and I assume it cannot operate with any other tug or pusher. It is, in effect, an integral part of the self-propelled unit behind it, albeit a part that can carry a different load and be detached and left somewhere for loading or unloading. (I am guessing most of that detail - I have no actual knowledge of their operation). If we can somehow identify a proper name for that type of vessel, it should be added to the article.
A similar vessel is identified as Futura ENI 04806130 + Matura ENI 04806140, and there is an article in Dutch that I could Google translate, or maybe you could follow it up? I am already beyond anything I am familiar with. https://www.debinnenvaart.nl/schip_detail/9704/
As far as I am concerned, they are both barges, but belonging to different sub-classes. After all, a dinghy is still a boat, whether it is powered by sail, oars, or outboard motor. Or even if the oars have been lost and it is floating helpless on the sea. Still a dinghy.
I found a selection of images of Hermina + Hermina I, with Hermina I frequently attached alongside. Not pulled, not pushed. Hermina I is just a dumb barge, and it does not look like a custom fitting, so it could be attached to any vessel. https://images.marinetraffic.com/collection/6213089.webp?size=800
The vessel (combination) is described as Inland, Pushtow, one cargo barge
But (and it is a big but), another source identifies
Hermina; Built 1972, Emden, 1600 hp Cummins + 275 hp Cummins bowprop
Hermina I; Built 1975, Meidrich, 480 hp Cummins + 220 hp Cummins bowprop
In which case, both units are self-propelled, although only one unit has a bridge with steering controls. Now we are talking 'Master + Slave'.
But there is still more; [Matura + Futura] became [Jenny I + Jenny II] around 2021, and are currently [KVB Sunny + KVB Black] aka 'Sunny Black', and are/is described as Inland, Motor Freighter.
They were built in Stettin (Poland) and Druten (Netherlands), and are powered by two 1600hp Cummins, but it doesn't say if one engine is in each unit.
I'm getting a headache from all this; how about you?
I think the most important result of our discussion is that nowadays, the word 'barge' without any further qualifier can refer to:
- A flat-bottomed vessel that does not have its own means of propulsion
- A flat-bottomed vessel that is self propelled
It should be checked whether this is complete. E.g. can 'barge' without any further qualifier also refer to a flat-bottomed vessel that is not intended to be moved often? Grieg2 (talk) 09:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Frequency is probably too subjective a criterion but, maybe "intended to be used in navigation" or similar would better exclude flat-bottomed vessels intended for static use (a floating landing stage, or the pontoons in a marina or floating bridge); but a Dutch barge is still a barge if it becomes a houseboat.
However, there are self-propelled flat-bottomed vessels that are not barges, eg landing craft or cross-river ferryboats - not sure how to define them out. - Davidships (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Davidships Would you say that 'barge' without any further qualification could also mean:
A flat-bottomed vessel that is intended for static use (a floating landing stage, or the pontoons in a marina or floating bridge)
I would say no. For static use, I do not think that a purpose-built stationary pontoon, eg a landing stage, diving platform, floating dock, would be described as a barge (at least in BritEng). - Davidships (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Davidships - the answer is no (in my opinion). I am much more familiar with the term landing-stage. But I am a UK dry-land based person who does not live by, or frequently use, a waterway, so it is very much a non-expert opinion.
Returning to my original theme; what is the common understanding for the word barge, as used in Britain versus the USA versus mainland Europe (apologies for lumping all you guys together). By 'common' I mean the man-in-the-street, or maybe half-way up a mountain. I make that distinction because people who live or work near water probably have a better understanding and would naturally use more precise terms such as 'narrowboat', or 'dumb-barge' or whatever.
It is noticeable that internet advertising for canal holidays (in Britain) often extends to include 'barges', presumably to ensure a larger number of hits on their site than if they limited themselves to just 'narrowboat'. e.g.
This site goes on to say; Canal boats, also known as narrowboats (and sometimes referred to as barges or longboats) are very easy to drive and...
Elsewhere we are told that 'longboats' is also wholly inaccurate, but that doesn't stop ordinary people from using the term, although it may be a regional thing, confined to the north of England..
@WendlingCrusader @Davidships Thank you. I think the issue becomes clearer. I would now say that 'barge' without any further qualification can refer to:
A manned flat-bottomed vessel intended for navigation (manned now implying self-propelled, but previously implying propelled by oars, men, horses, etc.)
An unmanned flat-bottomed vessel intended for navigation (unmanned implying that the barges were meant to be controled by the crew of other vessels.)
It just dawned on me that towboats/pusher-tugs and large passenger-vessels (eg Mississippi Riverboats) would satisfy that definition, but are certainly not "barges". So perhaps: A flat-bottomed vessel, manned or unmanned, intended for navigation, and usually for transporting cargo on inland waters. This does not exclude less common uses (eg, carrying passengers, or operating at sea).
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