User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

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I recently found out that the Chinese character on the logo of wiki was wrong. As a native Chinese, I know perfectly well that that character should be written as 祖. An additional dot on the globe could be seen. Please correct it right away. Sammy312 (talk) 02:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

personally i believe that on the english wikipdia nobody will notice mattman (talk) 07:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are several mistakes on the logo, we know all about them and hopefully they will be fixed sooner or later. It's easier said than done, though, unfortunately. --Tango (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In particular, see meta:Talk:Wikipedia/Logo#The proposed Chinese character in particular and that page in general for recent discussion. - BanyanTree 03:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How often do you check your Wikia email & how long does it take to reply normally?

Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dottydotdot (talk • contribs) 18:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I check it daily and I'm on it more or less all the time. Response times can vary widely. At the moment, I have it more or less under control with only 94 pending items, the oldest being December 21st.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Jimbo, or would you rather me call you Jimmy? Anyway, I have a quick question if you have time. What are your thoughts on this proposal? Thanks. Timmeh! 18:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious about that, too as it (the debate, not the opinion) has become quite disruptive to a few RfA's. And just FYI, your WP:DEAL statement has been "clarified" as of this diff. Could you update it in your words because as it reads now, it could construed that the conglomeration of opinions written are your intentions of what you currently think of being an administrator and the job description thereof. Thanks so much for your assistance on these matters!--It's me...Sallicio!^{${\displaystyle \color {Red}\oplus }$} 21:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed this discussion on the censorship of Josef Fritzl's name on dewiki, and would like to point out that the entire discussion is based on a false premise. It's NOT a "legal requirement" not to mention Fritzl's name on dewiki. Then all large German language media would be criminals, because Fritzl is named just as extensively in the German language press as in the English. And not only by the Bild-Zeitung, even the (state) Austrian Broadcasting (ORF) mentions his name on thousands (literally) of webpages and claim that "all of Austria and the entire world are asking themselves: Who is Josef Fritzl?". It's also worth to mention that the name of Josef Fritzl returns more Google results than that of the incumbent German Chancellor (and close to a million in German only). Censoring his name, as an extremely well-known person, even after he is convicted (his victims have changed their name anyway), is extremely anti-wiki and comparable to censoring the name of Adolf Hitler. Even other projects (most interwiki links) are censored by the German project (is it permitted to remove valid interwiki links? I consider this to be obstruction of the interwiki system). I have followed the discussion there, and there is actually a consensus to include his name in the article. The censorshop is not a decision by the German community, it is enforced by a few (two or three?) administrators. The German Wikipedia doesn't follow the consensus principle. Johnny from Bronx (talk) 19:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, de-wiki works in mysterious ways sometimes. Somehow I doubt they would stop acting like that "just" because Jimbo told them to stop censoring. Yeah, there is no legal reason for censorship (none I know of and I followed both the case and the legal reactions to it) but they can still censor it. Their WP:NOT does not include "not censored", unlike en-wiki's. Although I do think some consistency should be tried and removing valid interwiki links for such reasons should be avoided. Maybe Jimbo and/or the Board should consider the situation and try to clarify de-wiki's handling in this case. After all, censorship can be picked up negatively by the media... SoWhy 20:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To my mind the admins involved should be de-sysoped and topic banned. Kittybrewster ☎ 20:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia must agree not to allow any of its projects to be censored. That is just as an important pillar to any project as its free licensing it. I notice dewikinews refers to him as 'Josef F.'[1]. Should this discussion be moved to meta? Computerjoe's talk 21:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a message on the German Wikipedia's embassy inviting them to comment here. Computerjoe's talk 22:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec; I am not very active on de) Some people are being ridiculous. The last name of the criminal in question is not being named on de because it happens to be also the last name (at least birth name) of his daughter, his five surviving children with her, and his six other children with his wife. These are all victims. I don't even want to think about what life must be like now for his children. The principle that the privacy of the victims of crime must be respected is recognised to a certain extent even here, see WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy:

"When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. [...]

This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization."

Here is the corresponding passage from de:WP:BLP#Straftaten, in translation:

"Victims of crimes and criminals also have personality rights. Therefore the names of victims and criminals in contemporary criminal cases, which became known through the concrete criminal case, should only be completed in Wikipedia if these persons have become known under their name to the general public with lasting effect, e.g. through book publications, or (other than through the course of events of the crime and the criminal proceedings) have appeared in public voluntarily, e.g. in talk shows. This prevents, for example, that in case of the abduction of a girl the victim types in her name in Google after a number of years and finds a Wikipedia article 'Abduction of XY ... The perpetrator was convicted for repeated sexual abuse'."

AFAIK none of the victims in this case is seeking the public, and IMO de is handling this correctly even though in this particular case it's unlikely to make a difference. Using the word "censorship" in this context, as some people do, is ridiculous because knowing the last name of the family, while interesting to the public, is not in the public interest. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whats the point in having the page in the first place if the one key phrase isnt included in the article once? Wikipedia is an encylopedia after all. Seddσn ^talk 00:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They have a redirect from de:Josef F.. This is a standard way of referring to such criminal cases in German-language media. Currently there are 10x more Google hits in German for "Josef Fritzl" than for "Josef F.", which isn't a dramatic difference. Several major German and Austrian magazines and newspapers such as Der Standard, Spiegel, Focus use "Josef F." consistently, while others such as Die Zeit and the national TV chains ORF and ZDF alternate between the two uses. I would say among the most reputable sources in German there is no clear preference for either of the two versions.

I am not saying the decision at de is right; I am saying that it is sufficiently reasonable that it makes no sense to climb the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man in order to fight against it. --Hans Adler (talk) 01:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, perhaps we should! If his name is available in many reliable sources, as are the names of his victim, I personally see no reason it isn't included. I suppose this is a matter for them, not us, though. Computerjoe's talk 09:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is a matter for us, though, is how they remove valid interwiki links and even create useless redirects at other projects (including fr and it) in order to circumvent the correct interwikis and effectively censor other Wikimedia projects. Such behaviour should not be tolerated, the interwikis should not be tampered with or censored. This could create a dangerous precedent if the German Wikipedia is allowed to do so (other projects likely to have issues with freedom of speech could be the Chinese one, what if they wanted to behave in the same way, should other projects assist their censorship?) Johnny from Bronx (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. If ease to reuse is a concern under Austrian/German law, goodness knows the remafications it could have on the Chinese Wikipedia. What makes me uncomfortable is that we're discussing the actions of another wiki on this one, when in my opinion the appropiate place would be meta as that appears to be a more neutral forum. Should we move this discussion to meta:Wikimedia Forum? Computerjoe's talk 13:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Made a discussion at meta. [2] Computerjoe's talk 13:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. You have a new message on Wikia! Carabera (talk) 22:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it make sense to protect this userpage? Look at the amount of reverts in the page history - Nz26 | Talk | Contribs | Email 06:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly for a short time. Normally I'd say no way, people need to be able to contact jimbo but the edit warring needs to stop. Theresa Knott | token threats 07:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can't people use the talk page, or email him to contact him?. I think maybe a couple of weeks of protection would do... - Nz26 | Talk | Contribs | Email 08:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is his talk page! And email isn't a good forum for group discussion. Theresa Knott | token threats 08:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it were to be semi-protected, a sub page for IP editors to contact him would have to be set up. Totally unacceptable without it. DuncanHill (talk) 08:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you can't protect the userpage without protecting the talk page as well. I was meaning protecting just the userpage, not the talk page - Nz26 | Talk | Contribs | Email 11:08, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I request an opinion about WP:V from Jimbo, reinforcing both common sense and the professional historical practice of not propagating simple, uncontroversial errors.

The Annie Oakley article appears to be consulted hundreds of times every year by elementary and high school students after they learn about her in their history teaching units. Many simply vandalize, but many others sincerely write papers partly based on facts found (or that they would like to find) in this article [3].

Diligent but inexperienced students also find mythical Annie Oakley names and dates in many books, articles, and internet sources, which they transfer in good faith to the Wikipedia article. These have included damage by entire-file find-and-replace operations. Patiently reverting these vandalisms and myths is a constant article maintenance task. Prominent among these technically "reliable" but flawed sources is the PBS American Experience Annie Oakley biography film of 2006, and its contradicting associated web page. It is periodically rerun and widely viewed, as it was this week and will be next.

A longtime editor since 2004, who does make useful contributions, but is also well-known for being uncooperative [4], tendentious [5], and edit warring just under the radar [6], is currently using color of authority under WP:V to add one of dozens of technically "reliable source" but discredited mythological name-spelling references to Annie Oakley [7]. This editor gave up a logically lost debate at talk [8], but is persisting with trying to keep his doubly misleading reference in the article. [9]. I find it further disturbing and unprofessional by an experienced editor, that he attempted to casually dismiss the research conclusions of the Annie Oakley Foundation operated by Annie's living family – a loose cannon incaution if not a BLP concern.

I'm posting here because I want to preempt a secondary ANI behavior case, and solve the underlying problem of literalminded WP:V interpretation.

In my opinion this editor is engaged in system gaming for reasons of personal gratification, possibly extreme edit ownership, but sadly a game which discredits the trustworthiness of simple facts stated in this encyclopedia. Based on his recent history, I believe he will borderline edit war if I attempt to remove the reference, then I think he will attempt at ANI to smokescreen from his disruptive work-to-rule editing behavior, by making 'he-did-it-too' moral equivalence counter charges against me. Again based on his history, even if taken to ANI, I think he will persist under the radar. I conclude that if he will take "no", he will only take "no" from the top.

The issue as I stated at talk is whether simple, obvious, copycat name spelling and date mistakes – especially when having a secondary research source stating they are mistakes – have some perverse work-to-rule status under WP:V such that Wikipedia MUST propagate simple mistakes, merely because other reliable sources have made them, and even ignore when they have been specifically refuted. Agreed that controversies must be described, in part because there is a constituency for each position. But no one benefits from blindly repeating discredited name-spelling mistakes and wrong dates that have no constituency. To not do something about this trash-accumulating interpretation of WP:V reinforces Wikipedia's poor academic image. [10]

If such a Jimbo opinion is favorable, I request help from other editors to consense that the problem editor should allow the discredited and misleading reference to be removed from Annie Oakley, as well as to not make such future edits anywhere in the project. Milo 05:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After the argument/discussion-type thing over Mr. Sanger, you need this. --MikemoralSock (talk) 07:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MikemoralSock (talk) has given you a bubble tea! Bubble teas promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a bubble tea, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy drinking!

Spread the bubbliness of bubble teas by adding {{subst:User:Download/Bubble tea}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message!

Lots of people seem to want me to talk about it, but I'm not interested. I am being portrayed by some as believing things that I do not, and holding positions that I do not. As I have said many times, I think the entire "controversy" is silly and that Mr. Sanger is too often given too little credit for his work. (Note well that it is well known, though, that Tim Shell was the person who invented the notion of talk pages. Anyone else claiming credit for that now should be pushed hard.) There are a thousand other inventions by a hundred other lesser known early contributors, and a debate about semantics seems a bit absurd to me. Larry didn't make Wikipedia, and neither did I. It was made by the community, and lots of people played interesting roles.

If other people feel a burning need to discuss this, please do so elsewhere other than my talk page; I'm not interested in discussing it at this time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]