Talk:Orson Scott Card: Difference between revisions

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This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Wikipedia rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source: Surhone, L. M., Timpledon, M. T., & Marseken, S. F. (2010), Orson Scott Card: United States, author, critic, public speaking, activism, genre, Betascript Publishing{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Additional comments OCLC 636651797, ISBN 9786130336431.

We probably should wait awhile to make much mention of this--such as a separate article akin to Chick-fil-A same-sex marriage controversy--but (per eg a July 20 opinion pc by a NYT editorial bd member) it's notable that Card has become a victim of attempt at sorta-kinda Hollywood [& more successfully comicbook publishing?] "blacklisting."

Meanwhile, a Forbes contributer suggests folks either strongly opposed / strongly supportive of Card's political/social views, per the free market, ought avoid the flick or see it twice.

And an Advocate columnist opines:

[...I]f two of Card’s projects are tanked as a result of his homophobic view in one year, then the author is likely to be considered a risk for other projects, which means less money in his pockets and less money that he then donates to antigay organizations like NOM. [...]

Of course, there is the question of tolerance — should we set a good example by refraining from a witch hunt against homophobes? I do believe that everyone is entitled to political beliefs, but the issue is not Card’s personal held beliefs. It's the hate speech that he has propagated as a result of his views. If you are going to say hateful and inflammatory things about a subgroup of the population, then you must be willing to accept the consequences.

So, though Card has a right to my tolerance (I will not throw bricks through his window, I promise), he is not entitled to my financial support.

It breaks my heart to have to find out the ugly truth behind a book that I loved as a kid. But this November 1, I will not be going to see Ender’s Game. [...]

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Preparing for the eventual "OSCard SSMarriage controversy" article:

1. Southern Poverty Law Center terms the NOM a hate group. (Winter 2010)
2. "Profile: National Organization for Marriage" By Political Research Associates, February 14, 2013

   "History, Leadership, and Goals

   "Conservative activist Maggie Gallagher and Princeton professor Robert George launched the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) in 2007. NOM’s mission is to defeat same-sex marriage at the polls, in the legislature, and in the courts, from state to state and across the country. The group functions as an organized infrastructure that coordinates state and federal initiatives into a national movement to ban same-sex marriage.

   "[... ...]

   "Gallagher previously worked for other antigay groups such as the Institute for American Values and the Marriage Law Foundation. In her book The Abolition of Marriage, Gallagher equates same-sex marriage with polygamy, stating that 'for all its ugly defects, [polygamy] is an attempt to secure stable mother-father families for children… [and] there is no principled reason why you don’t have polygamy if you have gay marriage.' Current board chair Dr. John Eastman, a Chapman University law professor, has vocally defended the Boy Scouts' antigay discrimination and referred to homosexuality as a form of 'barbarism.'" (LINK

3. "[... ...] Utah Valley University President Matthew Holland [son of one of the Mormons' top advisory group of 12 clerics aka "apostles"] recently stepped down from the organization's board and was replaced by author and Mormon Times columnist Orson Scott Card.

   "'Everybody gets to speak out on issues they feel strongly about,' said [Utah gov.] Huntsman, a Mormon. 'It's the American way. I don't begrudge anybody their point of view.'

   "The commercial was the focus of a recent New York Times column by Frank Rich about the shift in sentiment among conservatives towards same-sex marriage. The column featured comments from Huntsman, a Republican, on his support for civil unions. [... ...]" ([Mormon-owned] Deseret News, April 24 2009 LINK)

4. David Gerrold, the author of the Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles," has responded to Card with a Facebook post:

   "You want me to be tolerant, Scott? First be one of those people who understands. Or to put it bluntly — get your fucking foot off my neck, then we'll talk tolerance.

   "See, Scott — I don't dislike you. I honestly don't. I think you're a very interesting author and you've turned out some works I admire. But you've made PR Mistake Number One. You've sided with hate-mongers. You've targeted a minority and you've characterized yourself as the righteous warrior. That gives you a short-term gain and a long-term loss. Look up Father Coughlin and Anita Bryant and Kirk Cameron.

   "Now you've made PR Mistake Number Two — instead of honestly and sincerely apologizing for the hurt you have caused others, you have doubled down. You have played the martyr card, arguing that you are the victim."

   LINK

   (To be continued.)

   --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

5. The Atlantic Wire's Esther Zuckerman (link), Aug. 6, 2013:

   As for the controversy over author Orson Scott Card's record of homophobia, we'll have to see if it pops up again. The creative team did a decent job of addressing the issue at Comic-Con, where producer Roberto Orci said that they were going to "use the spotlight — no matter how we got here — to say we support LGBT rights and human rights."

   --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:28, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
6. In a Mormon Times column from 2008 Card defines what he means by his requests for "tolerance" (link):

   We do not believe that homosexuals, by entering into a "marriage," are personally hurting anybody. Where the law makes such a thing available, even temporarily, those who "marry" are not our enemies. We believe the law is wrong and the marriage is not, in any meaningful way, what we mean by marriage.

   But my family and I are perfectly able to deal with such couples socially and keep them as friends, as long as they show the same respect and understanding for our customs and beliefs as we show for theirs.

   I speak from experience: My family and I have close friends who are gay, some of whom have entered into lawful marriages. They know we don't agree that their relationship is the same thing or should have the same legal status as our marriage, but we all accept that strong and clear difference of opinion and move on, continuing to respect and love each other for the values we share.

   Only when a gay friend demanded that I agree with his or her point of view or cease to be friends has the friendship ended. What is odd is that in every case they called me intolerant. They misunderstood the meaning of "tolerance." [... ...]

   --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
7. Hmmm, possibly w/in the "Irony Dept.": OSCard here (link) evaluates rather candidly the tendency for others to disregard (/i.e sort of the relative merits of...?) his many, varied (and apparently generally oft-outspoken...) notions.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:23, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
8. NYT's Ari Karpel to Breitbart.com, Mar 4, 2013: "While the gay audience itself is not necessarily the core audience for an 'Ender's Game' series of movies, the younger demographic is increasingly sensitive to gay civil rights issues. Moviegoers are savvy. It's going to be hard to avoid making this an issue."[1]
9. Ben Arnold, Yahoo UK Movies News, Aug. 16, 2013: "Writer Orson Scott Card appears to be doing his best to blackball himself in Hollywood."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
10. Aug 30, 2013, LATimes feature story: "Yet one of the book’s strongest and more enduring themes is its timeless take on integrity and compassion, somewhat surprising given Card’s recent remarks about homosexuals (whom he’s called sinners) and President Obama (whom he compared to Hitler). Even amid so many explosions, “Ender’s Game” ultimately is a coming-of-age story about the personal and psychological cost of warfare and the inherent goodness of children such as Ender."
11. Aug 27, 2013, CSMonitor: "Orson Scott Card seems determined to alienate most of the movie's potential audience. He's taken on gays, Muslims, Democrats, Turks, Russians and pretty much anyone who isn't a conservative white American. If audiences boycott the movie because of Card's beliefs, it will ruin Summit's plans to adapt subsequent books in the franchise. So Summit has a simple message: focus on the movie and forget about Card. That's not easy to do when he's comparing Barack Obama to Hitler."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
12. FireDogLake, Sep. 6, 2013: "Patrick Yacco of Geeks Out emailed me [Edited: Lisa Derrick] about the Respect fundraiser, Lionsgate and Ender’s Game: 'Until Lionsgate and their subsidiaries are more transparent about their production deal with homophobic activist Orson Scott Card for the rights to Ender’s Game, it’s difficult to see them as deserving of such an award [Edited: Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network's 2013 Respect Awards]. Unfortunately, it’s highly unlikely that those details will ever be revealed, so I feel that LGBT fans have few options to support that film, and should skip it when it’s released later this year.'"--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
13. Card chimes in on debate, finally, after film debut (in Sunday Deseret News, both nat'l & UT editions).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
14. Evan Smith Rakoff, Oct. 30, 2013, LATimes

    "Card is a Mormon[...]Christ of Latter-day Saints. [...] In 2012, during the divisive Amendment One movement to ban gay marriage in North Carolina, where Card lives, he wrote an opinion piece for micro-local paper the Rhinoceros Times stating why gay marriage should be prohibited.

    [...]

    "It may be of interest to anyone intent on keeping film profits from Card’s pocket that a typical book-to-film option has bonuses for bestsellers, so hypothetically, for every week a book is on the bestseller list, a film company, such as Lionsgate, would pay an author $5,000 -- even before the film is in theaters. If that’s the case, again, hypothetically, Card has already pocketed a quarter-million in addition to the price of the option.

    "Still, there’s hope Card’s views on humanity will evolve, just as the views of the Mormon Church evolved as the world changed around it. When informed Utah couldn’t join the United States unless it practiced monogamy, its leader, Wilford Woodruff, received a revelation from God that instructed him to ban polygamy and embrace monogamy."

    --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. However note this information via investigative reporters at The Wrap: "Orson Scott Card Won't Make Squat From 'Ender's Game' Box Office - Boycott the Book Instead (Exclusive)". TheWrap. Retrieved 2013-10-31.: "Though it was whispered early on that Card’s contract had “escalators” – built-in box-office milestones with cash bonuses attached – individuals close to the film say he has no such profit participation."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2. Card surprisingly (or not? see Chik-fil-a) believes booksales trend upward as a result of his pretty negative press, presumably due the "free publicity": "Will it [boycotts] affect the reception of my work? Of course, but not in ways that they expect. My sales go up with such attacks." link--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "Quotes in Context - Orson Scott Card on Gay Marriage"--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. ... Card’s politics are unconventional, blending some elements of liberalism and conservatism while rejecting others: “I grew up Republican but left in 1977, nauseated by the growing Reagan-worship,” he says. “Though the Democratic party was already on the road to extremist madness at that time, there were still Democrats like Daniel Patrick Moynihan — intelligent, capable of nuanced thought, and not given to hero worship.” Years later, Card came to admire George W. Bush: “the most honorable president of my lifetime,” he says. “No president since Lincoln has governed so well in the face of such vitriolic, dishonest, and hypocritical opposition.” He has served on the board of the National Organization for Marriage, a group that has become a hate object of the Left for opposing same-sex marriage. Card remains a registered Democrat but believes his own party is committed to “insane social experiments.” He sees the GOP as anti-immigrant and racist. “I really am a man without a party,” he says.

   Maybe it’s best to call Card ornery — he even blogs at the Ornery American (www.ornery.org), a website he runs — and recognize that creative types don’t need to be systematic political thinkers to engage the rest of us. ...

   John J. Miller in Nat'l Review

2. "I once received a Libertarian award. While I didn’t decline it, I was baffled: Who could read my fiction and think of it as anything but to-the-bones communitarian in perspective?"

   Interviewer's question: "Can you define communitarian for me?"

   Well, the word I used to use was communist – small-C communist. Marxism/Leninism was by no means communism, they knew that themselves. What they were was climax capitalism. One owner. Capitalism where the capitalist owner is the state.

   OSCard, interviewed by David Larsen in New Zealand Listener--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• My favorite author, my worst interview-I worshipped militaristic Mormon science-fiction writer Orson Scott Card -- until we met salon.com. 84.152.7.96 (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry guys I'm not used to editing wikis but I thought I'd pop in to say; Why does his view on homosexuality take up more space than the bit on his entire political philosophy? It seems disproportionate. I'm British not American and while it might be a hot topic over there - over here the law's already settled on gay marriage and your scrutiny of it is bemusing. Anyway; I thought he was an author first and a politician second. I could be mistaken of course (I don't know everything about him) but come on guys. It doesn't appear to me to be a proportionate article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.180.230 (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to have you here! I think you're not alone with the feeling that the article is disproportionately focused on his views on homosexuality, as he's clearly much more dynamic than that, and most well-known by his novels. The hard part is that "in the moment", articles tend to overfocus on the things in the media, and summarizing them often results in a firestorm/edit war, which I personally don't really have the energy to start or defend. As things blow over, it's easier to move forward. However, you're welcome to join Wikipedia and be bold in your edits! ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 22:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The homosexuality section has yet again exploded in size creating WP:WEIGHT issues for the article violating WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. We worked toward a consensus several months ago, and now it's back to this nonsense. Cut it in half. Morphh ^(talk) 00:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the version prior to User:Particled doubled it size in violation of weight policy and prior consensus achieved by many editors to reduce the size of the section and maintain proper balance with regard to significance in reliable sources. Please do not restore until discussion can pull out any significant pieces from the prior text that replace less significant text, maintaining weight within the article. To be clear, I'm not trying to remove any particular content or white wash it in any way, but the prose needs to be summarized and be limited in size as not to provide more weight in the biography of Scott Card then is due in reliable sources that discuss his life and work. So in short, it shouldn't be any larger then 3 or 4 paragraphs (not double the size of his science fiction section - what he is notable for) - so, include prose for the most significantly covered points for that subject and include references for the other notable criticism when similar in context. Morphh ^(talk) 00:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No. The section of Card's Fiction Writing is 1252 words, and there is also a section about his other writing accomplishments (teaching, journalism, etc) that is 522, plus another 265 words for his Writing Awards. In addition to all of this, there are also separate articles for each of his novels and also a separate article for his Bibliography. The section on his views about homosexuality (which is now the second most prominent thing he is known for) was only 870 words before you just cut it down to 481 words. And you're claiming Undue Weight? There was never any issue with WP:WEIGHT here because the section on his views about homosexuality was always far less than the sections on his writing. I'm sure Card's defenders would love to see most if not all of this section swept under the rug because it doesn't paint a rosy picture of him, but Wikipedia isn't here to make him look good and as long as it's sourced and relevant then it belongs in the article (see WP:WELLKNOWN). Additionally, the section on his views about Homosexuality also includes Card's various responses to the issues mentioned in it, so there was no WP:NPOV violation like you claim. Whether you like it or not, Card's views on this topic are now extremely prominent and highly relevant in relation to his public persona and even his work (the boycott, the media storm it has caused, actors and film studios distancing themselves from him, etc). 88.104.28.206 (talk) 11:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're comparing a major topic heading and other articles to a sub-topic heading, which is not appropriate. The comparable sub-section on Science fiction is 469 words, which is close to half the size of the 900 word homosexuality section. We barely cover his most popular work, yet we have 8 paragraphs on his homosexuality views. A separate article on Enders Game doesn't change the weight relation in this article. You can just scroll the article and clearly see the balance violation in the sections. Per WP:BLP "The idea expressed in WP:Eventualism – that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape – does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times." I don't suggest the topic is unimportant or not prominent, but clearly for a Biography we must keep the size in balance. We don't need all this material to convey the major points and not drum on with "and he wrote this mean thing, and this mean thing (which he says he doesn't believe anymore), etc". We don't need to quote every absurd statement he's written - we need to give proper weight to what is important and not what is just WP:NEWS based on recent events. Many celebrities are known for some political view or controversy - it doesn't dominate their biography as we have here. Pick whatever juicy bits of controversy over the topic are most relevant and briefly make mention of the other points to include a reference. Also, I didn't claim it was unbalanced (of viewpoints) as you suggested - WEIGHT is part of NPOV. It could be the most balance section ever, but if takes over the article, it's still a NPOV violation. Morphh ^(talk) 14:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, there is no WP:WEIGHT or WP:NPOV issue here, for the reasons already stated. Card's views and activism against homosexuality and gay marriage are indeed now the thing he is most known for after his writing, yet, in total, the more comprehensive version of the section (which was 870 words, not 900 so please don't exaggerate) equated to less than one sixth of the overall article wordcount. His writing career by far makes up the bulk of the article, so there is no problem with WP:WEIGHT. It is suitably proportionate. If you believe it does not balance well against the Science Fiction section of the article, then perhaps it's the Science Fiction section that needs more work to expand it rather than using it as an excuse to butcher other sections because they are more critical of him. Your preferred version of the Homosexuality section seems intent on obscuring perfectly sourced relevant facts and comes across as a whitewash, despite your claim to the contrary. In the spirit of compromise I have condensed the comprehensive version and managed to shave over 200 words off it so it now falls exactly between the two preferred wordcounts. This allows the section to maintain its comprehensiveness but takes up less space, so the integrity of the overall article is preserved. Particled (talk) 18:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is an absurd argument. If not for his writing no one would care about his view on LGBT issues. Arzel (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That might be true, but it doesn't detract from the fact he's a highly prominent anti-gay campaigner. His writing career and fame may have given him that prominence in comparison to other campaigners who aren't notable enough to have Wikipedia articles about them, but it's still the reality of the situation. The article is about him and all the things he is known for. Particled (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having read them both, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the longer version, but the new version seems like a fair compromise. It's something he's extremely well known for. Roguana (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So which of you is 88.104.28.206? Or are you all the same as 88.104.31.52? Use of sock's is not a good way to gain consensus. Arzel (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice attempt at a smear campaign, but I'm afraid it's you and Morphh who have dozens of shared articles in common. Now grow up, stop edit warring and learn to compromise. Roguana (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dozens? Not sure what you're suggesting here. I've edited thousands of articles and I only recall seeing Arzel on a few of the articles I watch. This is not even a big topic interest for me. Just happen to wander here after looking up literary information for Enders Game. Morphh ^(talk) 21:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't trying to exaggerate. I used http://www.wordcounter.net/ and pasted the section in there, which gave 904 words 5426 characters (minus title and maintaining ref markings) WP:AGF. For overall word count, minus the lead - the section was reporting closer to 1/4 of the article. However, it didn't take word count to see the issue - you could just scroll the article and the imbalance for that section was apparent. As for the condensed version, that looks better - thank you. I think there are a few things that could be summarized a little more (I worry about WP:IMPARTIAL) and prior discussions on included topic points that have altered the consensus at that time (Hamlet's father is given more weight that it should for a view Card doesn't even acknowledge - see here), but it's a good step forward. Morphh ^(talk) 21:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I've just full protected the article for three days due to the ongoing edit warring. Please discuss the issue here on the talk page instead of continually reverting. Also, semi-protection will have to be manually re-enabled when full protection expires. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose expanding the section, per the consensus a while back, and Morphh's arguments above. Card is most notable as a writer, not his opinions on SSM. I understand that's the controversial issue of the day, but this trend of writing really long sections on the subject for any living person who has ever expressed any controversial opinions on the matter doesn't make for good encyclopedia articles, and is a violation of WP:Weight and WP:BLP. Yeah, it's in the news and blog space right now, but see WP:Recentism...10 years from now nobody will remember Card for having opposed SSM, but he'll still be notable as an author. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Card is most notable as a writer, and the material in contention discusses critical reception of Card's writing and of some of his other creative projects (such as the film adapataton of Ender's Game). The argument that the material is recentism is also a bit silly, as Card has been known for his strongly anti-gay stances for years – something he seems to have worked very hard to achieve. Dezastru (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Morphh, you have said "we need to give proper weight to what is important and not what is just WP:NEWS based on recent events". What are your judgments as to what is proper and important for this article based on? Dezastru (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was meaning Wikipedia:Recentism - so looking at it from a long term historical view. And that's not to suggest that the topic is recentism, but only that its inflated weight and notability in relation to his life's biography is the a product of recentism due to homosexual marriage being a current hot issue in the U.S. As you described above, he's been writing this stuff for 20 years, but it's only recently become notable due to the change of public opinion on the topic. I expect if we look at the references, we'll see that most of the criticism is in just the last several years. I expect we've seen it's peak notability, since he's already conceded the loss. Morphh ^(talk) 01:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support using the full version of this section. We have articles dedicated to his various books, so there's plenty of material on Wikipedia about his fiction, in addition to filling the majority of this article. However, he's used his fame as a writer to make a stand as a social activist, so we should report this as well. MilesMoney (talk) 03:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other articles are irrelevant to the weight balance of this article - a BLP. Perhaps more content should be taken from those articles and inserted into this article to better represent WP:SUMMARY. Morphh ^(talk) 03:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this would be mutually exclusive with restoring the full version of this section. MilesMoney (talk) 03:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Card has had a national voice for about 30 years. For the last 10 of those years (that is, for the last third of the time he has been nationally notable), he has been known for his positions on homosexuality, which he has been very vocal about. Apart from his political opinion pieces, several of his fiction works have involved LGTB-related themes, and these have been a subject of comment in the criticism of his work. So it's not WP:RECENTISM for the article to cover his positions and reactions to them. If sources indicate that his positions have evolved over the course of his career, then that can also be noted in the article. Dezastru (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose expansion of the section, again per previous consensus. While OSC's views on homosexuality may be a hot topic in certain contexts within the U.S., by and large the global audience knows him for his writing, particularly of Ender's Game and the recent film adaptation. Half the statements in the expanded version are simply him defending himself or refuting himself over a limited-context or misrepresented statement. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 04:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is too much for this article considering he has in effect said goodbye to his published views in the 1990s by all accounts. I do not like Wikipedia's increasing tendency to let editors develop "side bar" motivations. I do not see anyway what his personal views on anything have to do with a bio which should state a bit about his upbringing, and then in the context of being a writer, his books. He is surely entitled to his views and not to have emphasis moved to this aspect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.66.81.80 (talk) 15:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I want to make it clear when I said "surely entitled to his views" I was not condoning them or validating them. The "surely" meant he is entitled to his viewpoint not that his viewpoint was something I "surely agreed" with. It is just my clumsey English sometimes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.66.81.80 (talk) 19:44, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Card's positions on these matters have been widely discussed and have become a significant part of his notability. Had he kept his views to himself, there would be no mention of them in the article. Dezastru (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Liberalism at its finest. Free speech for all unless it is the wrong kind of free speech. No place better than wp to turn a molehill into a mountain. Arzel (talk) 02:11, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]