Talk:Chris Sherwin: Difference between revisions

This article was nominated for deletion on 21 October 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

I have seen this community, the people that get joy from writing their narrative, compose articles like these after a fellow Wikipedian dies. I can understand some people experience feelings and miss their comrades and that's fine. However, I'd like to remind everyone that we have agreed-upon notability criteria and I'm not the guy to give you a pass. Chris Troutman (talk) 11:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is asking for a pass, Chris. The man's work was significant in his academic field. You might want to do a quickie refresh of WP:ACADEMIC. He wasn't a fly by night, ho-hum academic - his research was highly significant and is cited by other academics and researchers. He studied animal behavior for decades, his research helped turkey farmers, and he contributed greatly to the husbandry and welfare of laboratory animals. I think he easily meets #4 & #7 but only one is needed. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I see insufficient WP:BEFORE done on this AfD, but that's for the discussion there. Montanabw^(talk) 22:30, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just did a citation search for C.M. Sherwin - 2526, h-31, i10-54 ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Found this interesting article about H-index which states: The top 25% of Professors had a H-index of 30 or greater. There is discipline variation... and it provides a list. ^{Atsme📞📧} 01:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm skeptical about that source, because it comes from a ResearchGate Q&A page, which can often be unreliable. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This entire circle-jerk is proof that once the fans get involved in writing their narrative, there's no thought to the logic of it. Apparently, we don't need independent sources, anymore. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, Chris, please don't hold back. Do tell us what you really think. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish - the author of it is Ray Iles, his WP article sucks but this article appears legitimate. He is the one who wrote the H-index article and why I believed it had merit. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's no big deal to me one way or the other, because I'm not a fan of those kinds of metrics and it's becoming very clear that the AfD is going to be "keep", but the circle jerker has a point in respect to WP:RS/SPS. A published peer-reviewed paper by him would be far better to use, if you actually want to cite it on the page. Our page on ResearchGate does a pretty good job of explaining why scientists regard it with caution. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Adam9007: please indicate where and from what source the close paraphrasing is. Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish: The Earwig Copyvio tool reveals some similarities to this, this, and this. It probably doesn't rise to a copyright infringement, but I can't be certain. Adam9007 (talk) 00:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:00, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I used Earwig - the 36.7% comprised titles of his work, names of committees, and a single quote with in-text attribution - no copyvio. I avoid close paraphrasing and I'm very careful not to infringe on the copyrights of others. ^{Atsme📞📧} 15:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. It's not an issue when one is simply reporting those kinds of facts. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I expanded this yesterday and also rewrote and copy-edited bits of it. I was about to add it to the page, but you have the in-use tag up, so I thought I'd let you know that I have more material. SarahSV ^(talk) 14:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted it at User:SlimVirgin/draft, minus the tags at the top and the categories. SarahSV ^(talk) 14:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm about to go offline, so I'm going to add my version to the page. I've incorporated some of the changes you made, but not all (e.g. not RSPCA, which seemed a bit lame). You're welcome to revert, of course, but I've added some secondary sources, so I think it's an improvement. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, Atsme. I really dislike editing through an in-use tag, but I have to go offline, and I wanted to comment in the AfD beforehand and refer to the secondary sources I added. I also fixed the date formats (British, so dmy), filled in some of the refs, and rewrote one of the bits someone said was close paraphrasing. Feel free to play around with it. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:32, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, SlimVirgin. Thank you for your collaboration. Take a look at the RSPCA bit I added back for the wrap. If you still think it's a bit much, feel free to revert. ^{Atsme📞📧} 15:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for being so gracious! I hope I didn't mess anything up that you were doing/had planned. Please edit it as you see fit.

I wouldn't have added the RSPCA myself, but I won't remove it again. I think I'd rather find a source that discussed that research, then write a couple of sentences about it, and perhaps at that point say it was cited by the RSPCA. But I must go now. Good luck with the rest of it, and sorry again. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SarahSV - do you see any benefit to using this link? I also found this, and when its Googled, a bunch more science journals show up.^{Atsme📞📧} 17:42, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You might try reading WP:42. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You really need to read WP:ACADEMICS, Chris. I just hope that your work at NPR isn't representative of the AfD you filed here, and that you are actually understanding how to properly assess N for articles that clearly pass, such as this biography. ^{Atsme📞📧} 19:58, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, the first link could be added after the Bristol obit, although there's no additional information in it. Your second link could lead to an RS if we can find the report. Here are the secondary sources in the article so far, by the way, in order of use:

• Mendl, Mike (16 August 2017). "Dr Christopher Sherwin, 1962–2017". University of Bristol.
• "Tribute Paid to Dr. Sherwin". MRCVSonline.com. 17 August 2017. Retrieved 21 October 2017.
• Nicol, Christine J. (2015). The Behavioural Biology of Chickens. Wallingford: CABI, p. 164.
• "Light and behaviour", in D. S. Mills, Jeremy N. Marchant-Forde (eds.) (2010). The Encyclopedia of Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Wallingford: CABI, p. 387.
• Friend, Ted (2005). "Book reviews", Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 43(4), July 1995, p. 304.
• Fagerlund, Richard; Lachnit, Johnna (2002). Ask The Bugman: Environmentally Safe Ways To Control Household Pests. University of New Mexico Press. p. 153. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
• Balcombe, Jonathan (2006). Pleasurable Kingdom: Animals and the Nature of Feeling Good. New York: St. Martin's Press, p. 193.
• Highfield, Roger (11 May 2000). "Cockroach capable of feeling pain, says study", The Daily Telegraph.
• Nelson, Laura (11 February 2004). "Curious Mice Need Room To Run". Nature. doi:10.1038/news040209-6.
• Fraser, David (2013) [2008]. Understanding Animal Welfare: The Science in its Cultural Context. Chichester: John Wiley & Sons, p. 199.
• "Behavioural need", in D. S. Mills and Jeremy N. Marchant-Forde (eds.) (2010). The Encyclopedia of Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Wallingford: CABI, p. 52.

SarahSV ^(talk) 21:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You were right, SV - it did lead to more, such as this report, but you have a much better grasp on the science and how to best present it than I do for inclusion in the article. The RSPCA site would be the secondary source mentioning the report, and the actual report is here. There is also this BBC report wherein they've quoted Sherwin rather significantly. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:02, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These are good finds, Atsme. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:16, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add: the elephant report is already in the article, but the RSPCA and BBC are good RS for reaction and commentary on that. The first link you posted above was about a report on birds. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:23, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SV, regarding the bird link, the report is here. Sherwin was a member of the 8 member team comprising the Council's Working Group for Birds. Based on the citations, he played a significant role in that report that was presented in 2003 to the EUROPEAN CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF VERTEBRATE ANIMALS USED FOR EXPERIMENTAL AND OTHER SCIENTIFIC PURPOSES. It's rather obvious to me that the impact Sherwin made in his academic field was on a global scale. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We have a clash of the RS. Roger Highfield reported the following in The Daily Telegraph on 11 May 2000 (courtesy link):

The meeting at the Zoological Society will be told by Dr Chris Sherwin, of the University of Bristol, that the criterion used to assess the mental state of vertebrates, whether dogs, cats or chimpanzees, often produced similar results among insects.

Dr Sherwin said: "If a chimp pulls its hand away after an electric shock, we say she presumably must have felt an analogous subjective experience to what we call pain. But cockroaches, slugs and snails—which are not protected by legislation—also reacted in the same way, while tests on flies showed they could associate a smell with receiving an electric shock.

"If it is a chimp we say it feels pain, if a fly we don't. Why? Slugs will perform in some of these tests the same way as dogs, chimps and cats. They show far more complex patterns of behaviour than we had thought. And if they do feel pain, isn't that a welfare issue?"

I added part of the quote to the article, but then I noticed that other RS report that someone else (Stephen Wickens) said this, e.g. Copeland 2004, p. 130, and The Register (12 May 2000). So I've made it invisible for now. It's particularly odd because the Register appears to be quoting from the Telegraph. I think what may have happened is that the Register misquoted the Telegraph, and other sources used the Register because it was easier to access at that time. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looking around some more, that is almost certainly what happened. I see other sources (W/Times, ABC) report that the study existed, and quoting Wickens for another point. So the question is whether to trust the science editor of the Telegraph, who was the first reporter. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that the Telegraph is the correct version. Stephen Wickens is mentioned just before Chris Sherwin, so it would be a fairly easy mistake to make. I also found this [1], which seems to suggest that both Reuters and CNN mirrored the Telegraph version, and I tend to think they wouldn't both get it wrong (assuming the webpage I linked to is right). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found this which further confirms but can't find the original Reuters article. There is also a CNN report that I can't find but it does list it here. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:59, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the quote. Would be interesting to find out more about that meeting. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also see page 90 - "For Sherwin this indicates that ‘we should either be more cautious when using argument by analogy or remain open minded to the possibility that invertebrates are capable of suffering in a similar way to vertebrates’." (cite: Tiffin, Helen, Do Insects Feel Pain?, Animal Studies Journal, 5(1), 2016, 80-96. Available at:http://ro.uow.edu.au/asj/vol5/iss1/6). He is paraphrased here which cites this paper. ^{Atsme📞📧} 23:16, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another good find, Atsme. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Atsme, if you want to take this to DYK, it has been expanded fivefold since 21 October, so it meets the criteria. On 21st, it had 184 words "readable prose size", and as of now 973, according to User:Dr pda/prosesize.js. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It can't actually go live on DYK until the AfD closes (assuming it closes as keep) but it would nevertheless be a good idea to get the nomination in now rather than waiting, to make it in time for the nomination deadline. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

✅ Done. Finding more info online but not sure if we even need anymore, or if any of it would prove helpful so I'm throwing it out to see what sticks:

• AIW Discussion with Sherwin on panel "Collecting Blood from Rodents";
• operated by Authority Sciences LLC - evidence based source on dog health;
• [2] - Sherwin on what cured animals (turkeys) of stereotypical behavior;
• bringing together leading authorities from around the world;
• in Science Direct - article - Acknowledgement: We thank Dr Chris Sherwin and Dr Peter Lewis for supplying turkeys and useful discussions, and Dr Andrew Dorey for advice on optics;
• team awarded a 1,904,537(£) research grant;
• Dept of Applied Zoology and Veterinary Medicine, University of Kuopioy showing global recognition, cited and included in the Acknowledgement We also thank Dr. Chris M. Sherwin for his willing and valuable help with the English and for his helpful comments on the manuscript;

I'm of the mind we have plenty as it is without really needing to add anymore. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Atsme, I restored veterinary biologist only because of the repetition of "animal welfare". SarahSV ^(talk) 17:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Veterinary biologist was his BS, but his PhD+ was in Veterinary Science and Animal welfare science which is far more advanced than biologist. He worked in the Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Science at Bristol. I think the lead should mention his highest degrees - perhaps English veterinary scientist? ^{Atsme📞📧} 18:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I've changed the lead to say "veterinary scientist", and added that he specialized in applied ethology. I've also added his involvement in the two ethics committees. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect. Thank you, SV. It has been an absolute pleasure to work with you on this biography. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for saying that, Atsme, and it has likewise been a pleasure for me to work with you. I'm so glad that you created the article and defended it. I've added the European Council Working Party on Birds article you found, and I'm currently looking around for other sources on it. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SV, which category is a duplicate of Ethologists? Just wondering if you were looking at Ecologist thinking it was the same. I don't think he was "officially" an ecologist. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:54, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, sorry, my mistake! I hadn't realized that I'd added "English ecologists". :) Will fix it now. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:57, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It may be a little early to make everything consistent, but I noticed uses of behavior and behaviour and wondered if the article should be tagged for an English variant, like Australian English? Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 20:05, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guilty - I would not object to it being British-Australian English (they're the same, aren't they?). Paleo, rather than tag it, let's just make the changes - I'm sure we have an editor active in one of the projects who is from AU or the UK? Calling all proper English speaking bloats (is that the right word?), HELP with spelling. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was likely unclear but I meant tagging the talk page of course, not the article (which is often done non-controversially to let editors know that the language was standardized, I agree that it shouldn't be done until consistency was improved). —PaleoNeonate – 20:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Given that he spent his adult career at Bristol, I think English-English is fine, and I just put the template at the top of this talkpage. We can certainly copyedit as appropriate as we go along. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see that editors have been disagreeing about whether or not the page should include a "Selected works" section. I think that it's best to take the issue here, to the talk page.

Personally, I do not feel strongly about it, but I would lean towards the side of leaving it out. For me, it comes down to WP:NOTRESUME as a significant consideration, as I believe that such sections tend mostly to pad the page that they are on in a sort-of resumé-like way. I turn instead to favoring such material when either we have separate standalone pages about some of the works or when the listing is likely to be useful to readers as an additional sort of "external links" section (whether or not there are actual links) for readers who would like to be able to read the works elsewhere. But that is not the case here, because all anyone has to do is to run a PubMed or Google Scholar search and they will pull up the same information. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is more or less my thinking too in that it ends up being unneeded padding, especially since the main prose gets the point across pretty well of what they worked on. I don't have problems with a selected works section when there are secondary sources basically saying something to the effect of, "Here's a list of important papers by this author." We don't have that right now though, so we as editors shouldn't be doing that ourselves looking through Google Scholar or other databases. WP:NOTBIBLIOGRAPHY is pretty clear we don't want such lists either. While that policy does say Lists of creative works in a wider context are permitted., that would seem to be pertaining more to condensed lists rather than full citations like we had. That statement also cannot violate other policies such as not performing original research (picking out what papers we think are important) and relying on secondary sources as opposed to an indiscriminate database. Similar to Typto's comment on NOTRESUME, it's actually pretty often that we remove information like this on academic BLP's in exactly this same scenario. This shouldn't be anything too controversial. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've just spent some time looking at whatever guidance we can get from guidelines, and I'll start by saying that this is a matter for editorial judgment, rather than something where there is an absolute policy to follow. I'm certain that the list is permitted, but the question is whether or not it is a good idea. For what it's worth, Wikipedia:Biography dos and don'ts discourages writing biographies in a manner that promotes the subject, and I think a case can be made that padding this page with that section has an element of that about it. More significantly, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works#Basic list style – examples indicates that lists of works are most appropriate for persons in the creative arts, as opposed to scientists, and I have the impression that I do not often see such lists on scientist biography pages. It also says that Complete lists of works, appropriately sourced to reliable scholarship (WP:V), are encouraged, particularly when such lists are not already freely available on the internet. Here, we are talking about works that are mostly available online, and about a "selected" list, rather than a complete list, and I think KofA has a valid point about the "selection" being somewhat OR. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]