Talk:Chris Sherwin: Difference between revisions

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

I have seen this community, the people that get joy from writing their narrative, compose articles like these after a fellow Wikipedian dies. I can understand some people experience feelings and miss their comrades and that's fine. However, I'd like to remind everyone that we have agreed-upon notability criteria and I'm not the guy to give you a pass. Chris Troutman (talk) 11:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is asking for a pass, Chris. The man's work was significant in his academic field. You might want to do a quickie refresh of WP:ACADEMIC. He wasn't a fly by night, ho-hum academic - his research was highly significant and is cited by other academics and researchers. He studied animal behavior for decades, his research helped turkey farmers, and he contributed greatly to the husbandry and welfare of laboratory animals. I think he easily meets #4 & #7 but only one is needed. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I see insufficient WP:BEFORE done on this AfD, but that's for the discussion there. Montanabw^(talk) 22:30, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just did a citation search for C.M. Sherwin - 2526, h-31, i10-54 ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Found this interesting article about H-index which states: The top 25% of Professors had a H-index of 30 or greater. There is discipline variation... and it provides a list. ^{Atsme📞📧} 01:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm skeptical about that source, because it comes from a ResearchGate Q&A page, which can often be unreliable. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This entire circle-jerk is proof that once the fans get involved in writing their narrative, there's no thought to the logic of it. Apparently, we don't need independent sources, anymore. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, Chris, please don't hold back. Do tell us what you really think. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish - the author of it is Ray Iles, his WP article sucks but this article appears legitimate. He is the one who wrote the H-index article and why I believed it had merit. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's no big deal to me one way or the other, because I'm not a fan of those kinds of metrics and it's becoming very clear that the AfD is going to be "keep", but the circle jerker has a point in respect to WP:RS/SPS. A published peer-reviewed paper by him would be far better to use, if you actually want to cite it on the page. Our page on ResearchGate does a pretty good job of explaining why scientists regard it with caution. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Adam9007: please indicate where and from what source the close paraphrasing is. Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish: The Earwig Copyvio tool reveals some similarities to this, this, and this. It probably doesn't rise to a copyright infringement, but I can't be certain. Adam9007 (talk) 00:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:00, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I used Earwig - the 36.7% comprised titles of his work, names of committees, and a single quote with in-text attribution - no copyvio. I avoid close paraphrasing and I'm very careful not to infringe on the copyrights of others. ^{Atsme📞📧} 15:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. It's not an issue when one is simply reporting those kinds of facts. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I expanded this yesterday and also rewrote and copy-edited bits of it. I was about to add it to the page, but you have the in-use tag up, so I thought I'd let you know that I have more material. SarahSV ^(talk) 14:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted it at User:SlimVirgin/draft, minus the tags at the top and the categories. SarahSV ^(talk) 14:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm about to go offline, so I'm going to add my version to the page. I've incorporated some of the changes you made, but not all (e.g. not RSPCA, which seemed a bit lame). You're welcome to revert, of course, but I've added some secondary sources, so I think it's an improvement. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, Atsme. I really dislike editing through an in-use tag, but I have to go offline, and I wanted to comment in the AfD beforehand and refer to the secondary sources I added. I also fixed the date formats (British, so dmy), filled in some of the refs, and rewrote one of the bits someone said was close paraphrasing. Feel free to play around with it. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:32, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, SlimVirgin. Thank you for your collaboration. Take a look at the RSPCA bit I added back for the wrap. If you still think it's a bit much, feel free to revert. ^{Atsme📞📧} 15:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for being so gracious! I hope I didn't mess anything up that you were doing/had planned. Please edit it as you see fit.

I wouldn't have added the RSPCA myself, but I won't remove it again. I think I'd rather find a source that discussed that research, then write a couple of sentences about it, and perhaps at that point say it was cited by the RSPCA. But I must go now. Good luck with the rest of it, and sorry again. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SarahSV - do you see any benefit to using this link? I also found this, and when its Googled, a bunch more science journals show up.^{Atsme📞📧} 17:42, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You might try reading WP:42. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You really need to read WP:ACADEMICS, Chris. I just hope that your work at NPR isn't representative of the AfD you filed here, and that you are actually understanding how to properly assess N for articles that clearly pass, such as this biography. ^{Atsme📞📧} 19:58, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, the first link could be added after the Bristol obit, although there's no additional information in it. Your second link could lead to an RS if we can find the report. Here are the secondary sources in the article so far, by the way, in order of use:

• Mendl, Mike (16 August 2017). "Dr Christopher Sherwin, 1962–2017". University of Bristol.
• "Tribute Paid to Dr. Sherwin". MRCVSonline.com. 17 August 2017. Retrieved 21 October 2017.
• Nicol, Christine J. (2015). The Behavioural Biology of Chickens. Wallingford: CABI, p. 164.
• "Light and behaviour", in D. S. Mills, Jeremy N. Marchant-Forde (eds.) (2010). The Encyclopedia of Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Wallingford: CABI, p. 387.
• Friend, Ted (2005). "Book reviews", Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 43(4), July 1995, p. 304.
• Fagerlund, Richard; Lachnit, Johnna (2002). Ask The Bugman: Environmentally Safe Ways To Control Household Pests. University of New Mexico Press. p. 153. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
• Balcombe, Jonathan (2006). Pleasurable Kingdom: Animals and the Nature of Feeling Good. New York: St. Martin's Press, p. 193.
• Highfield, Roger (11 May 2000). "Cockroach capable of feeling pain, says study", The Daily Telegraph.
• Nelson, Laura (11 February 2004). "Curious Mice Need Room To Run". Nature. doi:10.1038/news040209-6.
• Fraser, David (2013) [2008]. Understanding Animal Welfare: The Science in its Cultural Context. Chichester: John Wiley & Sons, p. 199.
• "Behavioural need", in D. S. Mills and Jeremy N. Marchant-Forde (eds.) (2010). The Encyclopedia of Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Wallingford: CABI, p. 52.

SarahSV ^(talk) 21:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You were right, SV - it did lead to more, such as this report, but you have a much better grasp on the science and how to best present it than I do for inclusion in the article. The RSPCA site would be the secondary source mentioning the report, and the actual report is here. There is also this BBC report wherein they've quoted Sherwin rather significantly. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:02, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These are good finds, Atsme. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:16, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add: the elephant report is already in the article, but the RSPCA and BBC are good RS for reaction and commentary on that. The first link you posted above was about a report on birds. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:23, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SV, regarding the bird link, the report is here. Sherwin was a member of the 8 member team comprising the Council's Working Group for Birds. Based on the citations, he played a significant role in that report that was presented in 2003 to the EUROPEAN CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF VERTEBRATE ANIMALS USED FOR EXPERIMENTAL AND OTHER SCIENTIFIC PURPOSES. It's rather obvious to me that the impact Sherwin made in his academic field was on a global scale. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We have a clash of the RS. Roger Highfield reported the following in The Daily Telegraph on 11 May 2000 (courtesy link):

The meeting at the Zoological Society will be told by Dr Chris Sherwin, of the University of Bristol, that the criterion used to assess the mental state of vertebrates, whether dogs, cats or chimpanzees, often produced similar results among insects.

Dr Sherwin said: "If a chimp pulls its hand away after an electric shock, we say she presumably must have felt an analogous subjective experience to what we call pain. But cockroaches, slugs and snails—which are not protected by legislation—also reacted in the same way, while tests on flies showed they could associate a smell with receiving an electric shock.

"If it is a chimp we say it feels pain, if a fly we don't. Why? Slugs will perform in some of these tests the same way as dogs, chimps and cats. They show far more complex patterns of behaviour than we had thought. And if they do feel pain, isn't that a welfare issue?"

I added part of the quote to the article, but then I noticed that other RS report that someone else (Stephen Wickens) said this, e.g. Copeland 2004, p. 130, and The Register (12 May 2000). So I've made it invisible for now. It's particularly odd because the Register appears to be quoting from the Telegraph. I think what may have happened is that the Register misquoted the Telegraph, and other sources used the Register because it was easier to access at that time. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looking around some more, that is almost certainly what happened. I see other sources (W/Times, ABC) report that the study existed, and quoting Wickens for another point. So the question is whether to trust the science editor of the Telegraph, who was the first reporter. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that the Telegraph is the correct version. Stephen Wickens is mentioned just before Chris Sherwin, so it would be a fairly easy mistake to make. I also found this [1], which seems to suggest that both Reuters and CNN mirrored the Telegraph version, and I tend to think they wouldn't both get it wrong (assuming the webpage I linked to is right). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found this which further confirms but can't find the original Reuters article. There is also a CNN report that I can't find but it does list it here. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:59, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the quote. Would be interesting to find out more about that meeting. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also see page 90 - "For Sherwin this indicates that ‘we should either be more cautious when using argument by analogy or remain open minded to the possibility that invertebrates are capable of suffering in a similar way to vertebrates’." (cite: Tiffin, Helen, Do Insects Feel Pain?, Animal Studies Journal, 5(1), 2016, 80-96. Available at:http://ro.uow.edu.au/asj/vol5/iss1/6). He is paraphrased here which cites this paper. ^{Atsme📞📧} 23:16, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another good find, Atsme. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Atsme, if you want to take this to DYK, it has been expanded fivefold since 21 October, so it meets the criteria. On 21st, it had 184 words "readable prose size", and as of now 973, according to User:Dr pda/prosesize.js. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It can't actually go live on DYK until the AfD closes (assuming it closes as keep) but it would nevertheless be a good idea to get the nomination in now rather than waiting, to make it in time for the nomination deadline. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

✅ Done. Finding more info online but not sure if we even need anymore, or if any of it would prove helpful so I'm throwing it out to see what sticks:

• AIW Discussion with Sherwin on panel "Collecting Blood from Rodents";
• operated by Authority Sciences LLC - evidence based source on dog health;
• [2] - Sherwin on what cured animals (turkeys) of stereotypical behavior;
• bringing together leading authorities from around the world;
• in Science Direct - article - Acknowledgement: We thank Dr Chris Sherwin and Dr Peter Lewis for supplying turkeys and useful discussions, and Dr Andrew Dorey for advice on optics;
• team awarded a 1,904,537(£) research grant;
• Dept of Applied Zoology and Veterinary Medicine, University of Kuopioy showing global recognition, cited and included in the Acknowledgement We also thank Dr. Chris M. Sherwin for his willing and valuable help with the English and for his helpful comments on the manuscript;

I'm of the mind we have plenty as it is without really needing to add anymore. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Atsme, I restored veterinary biologist only because of the repetition of "animal welfare". SarahSV ^(talk) 17:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Veterinary biologist was his BS, but his PhD+ was in Veterinary Science and Animal welfare science which is far more advanced than biologist. He worked in the Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Science at Bristol. I think the lead should mention his highest degrees - perhaps English veterinary scientist? ^{Atsme📞📧} 18:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I've changed the lead to say "veterinary scientist", and added that he specialized in applied ethology. I've also added his involvement in the two ethics committees. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect. Thank you, SV. It has been an absolute pleasure to work with you on this biography. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for saying that, Atsme, and it has likewise been a pleasure for me to work with you. I'm so glad that you created the article and defended it. I've added the European Council Working Party on Birds article you found, and I'm currently looking around for other sources on it. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SV, which category is a duplicate of Ethologists? Just wondering if you were looking at Ecologist thinking it was the same. I don't think he was "officially" an ecologist. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:54, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, sorry, my mistake! I hadn't realized that I'd added "English ecologists". :) Will fix it now. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:57, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It may be a little early to make everything consistent, but I noticed uses of behavior and behaviour and wondered if the article should be tagged for an English variant, like Australian English? Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 20:05, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guilty - I would not object to it being British-Australian English (they're the same, aren't they?). Paleo, rather than tag it, let's just make the changes - I'm sure we have an editor active in one of the projects who is from AU or the UK? Calling all proper English speaking bloats (is that the right word?), HELP with spelling. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was likely unclear but I meant tagging the talk page of course, not the article (which is often done non-controversially to let editors know that the language was standardized, I agree that it shouldn't be done until consistency was improved). —PaleoNeonate – 20:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Given that he spent his adult career at Bristol, I think English-English is fine, and I just put the template at the top of this talkpage. We can certainly copyedit as appropriate as we go along. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I think you meant "blokes". Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rug burns from rotflmao - yes, Gandydancer, that's the word I couldn't recall. I was feeling a bit bloated when I posted that comment - it was the best I could do. ^{Atsme📞📧} 04:25, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see that editors have been disagreeing about whether or not the page should include a "Selected works" section. I think that it's best to take the issue here, to the talk page.

Personally, I do not feel strongly about it, but I would lean towards the side of leaving it out. For me, it comes down to WP:NOTRESUME as a significant consideration, as I believe that such sections tend mostly to pad the page that they are on in a sort-of resumé-like way. I turn instead to favoring such material when either we have separate standalone pages about some of the works or when the listing is likely to be useful to readers as an additional sort of "external links" section (whether or not there are actual links) for readers who would like to be able to read the works elsewhere. But that is not the case here, because all anyone has to do is to run a PubMed or Google Scholar search and they will pull up the same information. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is more or less my thinking too in that it ends up being unneeded padding, especially since the main prose gets the point across pretty well of what they worked on. I don't have problems with a selected works section when there are secondary sources basically saying something to the effect of, "Here's a list of important papers by this author." We don't have that right now though, so we as editors shouldn't be doing that ourselves looking through Google Scholar or other databases. WP:NOTBIBLIOGRAPHY is pretty clear we don't want such lists either. While that policy does say Lists of creative works in a wider context are permitted., that would seem to be pertaining more to condensed lists rather than full citations like we had. That statement also cannot violate other policies such as not performing original research (picking out what papers we think are important) and relying on secondary sources as opposed to an indiscriminate database. Similar to Typto's comment on NOTRESUME, it's actually pretty often that we remove information like this on academic BLP's in exactly this same scenario. This shouldn't be anything too controversial. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've just spent some time looking at whatever guidance we can get from guidelines, and I'll start by saying that this is a matter for editorial judgment, rather than something where there is an absolute policy to follow. I'm certain that the list is permitted, but the question is whether or not it is a good idea. For what it's worth, Wikipedia:Biography dos and don'ts discourages writing biographies in a manner that promotes the subject, and I think a case can be made that padding this page with that section has an element of that about it. More significantly, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works#Basic list style – examples indicates that lists of works are most appropriate for persons in the creative arts, as opposed to scientists, and I have the impression that I do not often see such lists on scientist biography pages. It also says that Complete lists of works, appropriately sourced to reliable scholarship (WP:V), are encouraged, particularly when such lists are not already freely available on the internet. Here, we are talking about works that are mostly available online, and about a "selected" list, rather than a complete list, and I think KofA has a valid point about the "selection" being somewhat OR. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The following will address some of the concerns I've seen raised in this edit summary and at the DYK nom as well:

• WP:NOTBIBLIOGRAPHY - #7 Simple listings without context information - Lists of creative works in a wider context are permitted.
• WP:COI - the Chris Sherwin biography is not a biography about DrChrissy who was an anonymous WP editor; rather, it is a biography about Chris Sherwin, a veterinary scientist. To my knowledge, none of the editors who worked on the Sherwin biography knew the two were one in the same until after his death. The anonymous editor, DrChrissy, appeared to be knowledgeable about animal-related articles and was considered a helpful and productive collaborator, which in itself, does not create a COI connection.
• WP:OR - I did not see any OR in the disputed list in the section, "Selected works". To my knowledge all of the material has been published in reputable journals or other RS.
• The AfD was closed as keep. The debate is over. Any editor who wants to help build an encyclopedia and help improve/expand this biography is certainly welcome.
• I have no objection to trimming down the list if there is redundancy or if the topic would not be of help to our readers, particularly academics and researchers.^{Atsme📞📧} 22:24, 28 October 2017 (UTC) ^{Had started new section before I realized discussion above it. 22:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC)}[reply]

I realize that you started this as a different section, but I think that the last bullet point is the most directly relevant here. That's good, thanks. And I think that pretty much everyone agrees with you about the point just before it. The issue about OR is not over whether the individual elements in the list exist, but over whether selecting those particular list items and not everything else he published is. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, ok. That thought had not entered my mind considering the policy states, The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. If the document was published in a journal or other RS, it is not OR but to satisfy any concerns, we could rename the section to Sampling of published works, or the like. I'm not finding anything in the policy that indicates to me that the act of choosing published works for inclusion in a list is noncompliant with OR. ^{Atsme📞📧} 00:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the OR issue is borderline here, the distinction between a secondary source that says "this subset of his works are the most important works by this author" and editors saying it. For me, that's very much secondary. I don't much like using a header worded as "sampling". The more I think about it, the more I feel like leaving the list out entirely, but I'm not overly invested in whatever we decide. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:25, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While this comment was originally intended as a different section, some of those bullet points aren't relevant to anything with this content (the AfD) or just not brought up here at all prior (COI). The remainder such as zeroing too much on just the quoted portion of WP:NOTBIBLIOGRAPHY are discussed above for clarification. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't OR; this is editing, and the usual editorial judgement applies. It's quite standard to include a sweep of someone's work from the earliest to the latest, because it's interesting, and it shouldn't be removed repeatedly. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Generally when someone adds content and it is removed, the expectation is not to edit war it back in (which is policy), but gain consensus on the talk page at that point for including it (WP:BRD as an example). It has only been removed repeatedly to enforce policy because editors keep trying to reinsert it without gaining consensus at this point.

OR has been discussed a bit above already in that we as editors are not supposed to use "editorial judgement" to pick out information from indiscriminate lists (also WP:WEIGHT policy). We'll need a secondary sources to do that for us. WP:NOTRESUME etc. generally discourage doing this too as well as this information usually being removed from academic BLPs. Without the section, we'll also have a pretty clean and concise BLP. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The OR thing seems to me to be a minor sideline to the main issues of this discussion, and has probably gotten more pixels than it is worth. But – do we have consensus to remove the "Selected works", or not? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the totality matters more at this point rather than which one thing stands out the most with respect to OR or otherwise. At this point though, we'll need to consensus to keep it in (as opposed to needing consensus to remove it as it is a relatively new edit). It doesn't look like there's consensus to keep it, and various policies are at the least leaning towards not keeping it as is. I'm good with deleting it and moving on as it's the only problematic area I found in the article. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer to let everyone have their say. But it looks to me like consensus is leaning towards removal. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tryp, I'm not supporting complete removal, I think those published in journals should remain. It doesn't appear that SV supports removal either = 2 against removal (full or partial) VS 2 for it. Montanabw hasn't weighed-in and she edited a good portion of the Selected works section. Perhaps we should call an RfC to get a wider ranging, uninvolved consensus? ^{Atsme📞📧} 21:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC)   [reply]

The bulk of the Selected works section was in place by the end of August, so anyone wanting to remove it should seek consensus. I'm puzzled that anyone would want to do so. It's not particularly long; it's interesting; it's there for the reader; and it isn't at all unusual to include such a section. Readers who don't want to read it will ignore it. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:10, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like at the least there is no consensus for keeping then, but I'm also not seeing anything in the above discussion that would counter WP:NOTRESUME policy in order to keep it (what's needed for WP:CONSENSUS, not just vote counting in Atsme's post above). I also don't think an RfC is needed for something this uncontroversial as a policy-based removal of resume/CV like content. Whether it's "standard" to include it (it's also standard to remove these sections outright) or interesting is more of a personal editor preference thing at that point with that policy in mind. I've gone ahead and removed the section along with the reminder that editors need to gain consensus in order to restore it rather than try to reinsert it by revert (more of that is likely to trigger page protection). At this point, the article looks to be in pretty good shape otherwise.

As always, if a secondary source does put out something like a mini-CV of important works, I'm entirely open to using that in such a section. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: A "selected works" section is standard. Ann T. Bowling was passed for GA by David Eppstein with such a list. It is entirely appropriate. Montanabw^(talk) 18:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The kind of falls into other stuff exists.

• Keep but trim. I generally think selected works are a good idea, to give a representative idea of what an academic has done (other than students, this is the main recorded output of their careers). But the one in this article is way too long. In general I think aiming for a half dozen is appropriate. Works should be selected only when (1) they are particularly substantial (i.e. books, not papers or edited volumes), (2) they have been specifically called out in the independently-and-reliably-sourced text of the article (e.g. someone writing about the subject called this work significant, or it won a significant award), or (3) they are particularly well cited (both for their field and among the subject's publications). —David Eppstein (talk) 18:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's generally my standpoint that the list was too long, but that we want independent sources to pick out the important stuff like you mentioned. That becomes more important when this is the BLP of a recently deceased editor too. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

David Eppstein, as I do not have access to the databases that can indicate how often an article has been cited by others, I would view you as a neutral party to make that call. I think the books and book chapters should all go back in now, though. Perhaps if the above editor can restore that piece in a gesture of goodwill and remove his request for full page protection, that might be the best way to handle this matter. Montanabw^(talk) 18:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Editors have been unable to stop reinserting the disputed content from the very start of this discussion, so as previously warned, protection has been requested until editors can avoid edit warring while attempting discussion. The reverting (especially with your last one even though you were warned) is reaching nonsense levels.

On article citations, that was one of the criticisms at the AfD that we're wandering into WP:OR territory doing that ourselves using metrics that are already shaky at best. The best thing to do is rely on independent sources directly pointing out that X,Y,Z, are important works. We do have to remember that WP:NOTCV is policy and this is blowing up much more than it should be. Normally in academic BLPs when these sections are removed with that in mind, that's accepted without anything like what's going on here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:07, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Google Scholar is such a database, and is publicly available. The one that stands out in a search for "author:cm-sherwin" is "Voluntary wheel running", and then the next highest are "Refining rodent husbandry", "Comparison of the welfare of layer hens", and "Can invertebrates suffer?". I would definitely include "Voluntary wheel running" (as by far the highest cited) and "Can invertebrates suffer?" (as something we discuss in detail in the article text); the rest are judgement calls. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Added in response to Kingofaces43: choosing which publications to include in an article is no more original research than choosing which details from the sourced biography to skim over and which to elaborate on, or choosing which awards are significant and which too minor to mention. They are editorial judgements, yes, but necessary ones, and also routine ones, of a type that most Wikipedia editors make in most edits. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is indeed a spectrum in editorial judgement, but the problem is that we are pulling this current information from a indiscriminate database, not a source that has picked that information out for us already. Books are an idea I'm a little more open to because that is a little more similar to creative works for literary authors rather than journal articles (though still different since it's scientific work often acting as an editor with multiple authors). Caution would be needed though before adding anything. If we can get a list of books on this talk page being considered and ideally supporting sources discussing them to some degree, that can be worth discussing. It may be redundant with the references section, but that may just be a matter of presentation. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:23, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• For that reason, David, it would probably be best if someone other than myself and the above editor made that decision. Neutrality is best, given the contentious AfD discussion and other talkpage discussion. Montanabw^(talk) 19:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Montanabw, re: your post above about access to databases, if you look at "Sherwin, Christopher M.", ResearcherID (run by the Web of Science/Clarivate Analytics), it lists 62 publications, with the number of times cited for some (go to "sort by: times cited"), beginning with 272 for "Voluntary wheel running: a review and novel interpretation". It gives him an h-index of 23 (go to "citation metrics" on the left to see that). SarahSV ^(talk) 19:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the list. We can perhaps edit it here. I'll add some asides for structure: Sherwin published over 62 works,^[1] including: This is a sourced intro, presumably non-controversial--Montanabw

This is a relatively short list, anything that requires removal? Seems non-controversial. Discuss --Montanabw

The above seems the major bone of contention, but is still far less than 62 total items, I think... discuss --Montanabw