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:It's clearly impractical to list the hundreds of small states. I'm not sure I see how the Confederation as a superstate like the EU is appreciably different from the late-period HRE. [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 20:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
:It's clearly impractical to list the hundreds of small states. I'm not sure I see how the Confederation as a superstate like the EU is appreciably different from the late-period HRE. [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 20:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

== Infobox Map ==

A map is being fought over...again. This revision [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holy_Roman_Empire&direction=next&oldid=1140521804] changed the infobox map due to what would appear to be a factual inaccuracy, at least according to the old image's file [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_1000CE.svg].
The user who made the change, @[[User:62.7.235.211|62.7.235.211]], eventually added this {{TQ|"(c. 1200- c. 1250)"}} to the caption.
These changes remained virtually unchallenged until the map was disputed over again with this revision [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holy_Roman_Empire&direction=next&oldid=1155729085].
@[[User:151.37.37.64|151.37.37.64]] sought to keep it, writing {{TQ|"problem date: “1200–1250”; source?"}} for their edit description. [[User:Maxxhiato|<em style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#FF6699">Maxx-♥</em>]] [[User talk:Maxxhiato|talk and coffee ☕]] 15:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:49, 19 May 2023

Template:Vital article

Can we please add map that isn’t moving

Can we please add a map that isn’t moving? You don’t have to remove the moving one but like can. You guys make a map that is still and isn’t moving. AJDSTL (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why? If the graphic bothers you, freeze it at some point. How many maps do you want? Which years do you consider notable? 104.169.37.99 (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coat of Arms

The chain is very broken in the image on the page , but when you examine the source image, the chain of the Order of The Golden Fleece is perfectly fine. Also, the sinister crown on the dexter side of said crown one of the gems is the wrong color.


I am not the original creator of this CoA, these are merely screen-captures of missing details. I call on the original creators of this work or someone else more skilled than I to fix these issues.


Thanks, PearBullet PearBullet (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this actually the "coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire"? It incorporates the arms of Hungary and the file calls it the CoA of a specific set of emperors, which is a different thing, since they also held many territories outside the empire. Even if it is, it seems only to have been used for 16 years out of a thousand which suggests that its inclusion in the infobox gives it a disproportionate prominence... Furius (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
agreed that the infobox gives it disproportionate prominence. I do not have the power to change that as I know near nothing about the HRE, I just wanted to bring the flaws in Joseph II's CoA to somebody's attention so that it could be fixed. somebody more knowledgeable than I on the HRE should change the CoA. PearBullet (talk) 15:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox map

Gabriel Ziegler why 1789 in particular? Why not year 1000 for example, which is close to when HRE started (and when it was actually an empire and controlled Rome)? Another landmark year for HRE was 1648, which was the end of the 30 Years War (the war which in reality ended the empire, with HRE only existing after that as a tradition). 1789 has no significance to HRE, in fact it was a time when the "empire" and was the joke of Europe with Voltaire saying: "This body which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was in no way holy, nor Roman, nor an empire." However, I'm well aware of the obsession by some German history enthusiasts to constantly highlight the German domination of Eastern Europe, and that is the only reason why 1789 would make sense (as 1789 has no significance to HRE). However, becasue HRE shifted so much to the south, west and then finally east, I think the longstanding infobox map is the best. E-960 (talk) 22:45, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't seem fair. 1789 is a perfectly logical year, since it represents the state of the Empire on the eve of the revolutionary wars that brought it to an end. The animated gif seems a little bit better than a static map, because it allows viewers to see how the empire evolved. But if there are errors in it, it can't stand - Gabriel Ziegler, could you identify what those errors are, specifically? In the 1789 map, it is perhaps a little difficult to see much of the detail (always a problem with maps of the HRE!). Furius (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, in 1789 HRE was no empire (most maps of Europe from that time don't even show HRE as it fell by the wayside), and a new order with Austria and Prussia was in place. Also, correlating 1789 and the French Revolution to HRE is a stretch (it lasted for another 17 years). Also, remember that the longstanding map can always be fixed if there is some minor discrepancy that needs adjusting. --E-960 (talk) 23:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Using 1789 as a "snapshot" date is pretty common - even the animated map that you're in favour of uses 1789 as one of its dates! Yes, of course, if the map has errors it could be restored to the article once those errors were fixed. But so far, I'm unclear whether it does have any. Furius (talk) 01:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sardinia was never controlled by HRE (Incorrect). HRE loss most of Italy in 1648 (Incorrect). And after the Treaty of Lunéville, the maps shows: Grossherzogtumberg, great part of Baden and Wuttemberg as a part of the concession land to France, which is factually incorrect. Gabriel Ziegler • 📄 • 📜
1789 and near years were one of the most interesting eras for the HRE and Europe. There were events where the HRE and other European countries that had possesions or were part of the HRE participated such as Prussia or Austria.

One of the biggest (and not the single) example is the Industrial Revolution, and the implication of the HRE are minimal, but exists, for example: "Around 1800, part of the Ruhr Valley in Westphalia was called 'Miniature England' because of its similarities to the industrial areas of Britain.". Also implications of countries which claimed possesions in the HRE such as Austria, reacted at these changes of the Industrial Revolution, but the Industrial Revolution is not important. The French Revolution is the biggest event of HRE history, and the French Revolution started in 5 May of 1789 to 9 November of 1799, and the implications on HRE were many, changes of the borders such as Battle of Wiesloch of 1799 which implicated Austria/HRE and France. Other events could be examples such as: Battle of Stockach: French victory, Battle of Engen: French victory, Battle of Messkirch: French victory, Battle of Biberach: French victory, Battle of Erbach: French victory. Also, I'm not a German enthusiast, I mind about German history and that stuff but I'm not even German, I'm Venezuelan with German ancestry, and well others like Spanish or Galician people. But well, the biggest reason why 1789 is the War of the Second Coalition, If you do not know what is that, I suggest you to look at it. I won't explain. And well, the year 1000 is not relevant in HRE history, I can resume you what was the history of 1000's HRE History and near years: "Give me the sword and I'll kill this traitor !!!.", "I go to Rome for the coronation", "Give me that land and I pay you", "I hate Hungarians !". And very boring history which didn't make an impact in Europe history, or even HRE history. Thank you... E-069. Gabriel Ziegler • 📄 • 📜

--Most maps don't even show HRE in 1789--
I'm not convinced by your arguments, it appears that this is just your personal preference and you are throwing around a bunch of secondary facts to justify your choice. Using the same logic you can saturate every Wikipedia European polity article with maps from 1789... Sweden (in 1789), Spain (in 1789), Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (in 1789), Russian Empire (in 1789)... why, well because it was the year of the French Revolution, which affected all of them down the road in one way or another. Also, all those other facts you shot-off are secondary, sorry most historians don't think about HRE and the Industrial Revolution. In the end, you are failing to see the big picture, in 1789 HRE was nothing more than a tradition and an after thought (Napoleon did not fight the HRE, he fought Prussia, Austria, etc.), a new political reality was formed well before that. So, instead of showing HRE in the year 1000 under the Ottonian dynasty when HRE was actually an empire and actually controlled Rome, and was in its height, you want to use a map in which HRE was an after though. In any case, I still think the dynamic map is best because HRE borders changed so much over time moving around south, west and east. So, I would recommend fixing the discrepancies on that map instead of removing it. --E-960 (talk) 12:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on the Empire or Country you're selecting for a map, I have made maps about Sweden, Spain and PLC, and I mean Imperial maps, for Russia I got some plans but Meh. So, for example, on the map of Sweden, the logic is, if you'll do a colonial map, you should do the map of the entity at its peakest. And well, one of the most affected entities was the HRE, and resulted in its disintegration!!! Will you tell me 1789 is an irrelevant year for the HRE? Also, talking about the map you show. Do you think every single spot in Germany had a constitution, king, army and all that stuff, It was all led by the HRE, which is a political entity, not an empire. Mention that the map is presumed to be of 1789, and the desintegration of HRE was in 1806. Talking about Napoleon attacked who or if he attacked my cat, Do you think Bavaria, Burnswick, Hanover, Wurttemberg and many members of the HRE who participated in the Napoleonic Wars, Napoleon didn't attacked them? Also, if the HRE controlled rome or was an empire is clearly irrelevant by their own history, as i said, most of the history around 1000 is just: "Create this temple !", "I created the largest church, Speyer Cathedral!", "Damn ! The Hungarians are mad with us!". And boring things which are not Notable. My solution is to put both maps, just like the articles of the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, which the Roman Empire article is a good article and the Byzantine Empire is a featured, I do not see the problem, but let me see if I can fix the Gif Map. Thank you E-960 Gabriel Ziegler • 📄 • 📜

I think the best option is to just fix the dynamic map (instead of having multiple maps in the infobox), and maybe change the color to green to make it easier on the eyes. --E-960 (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the best solution is to put both maps. Gabriel Ziegler • 📄 • 📜 18:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One of the disputed areas in the dynamic map
The HRE always evolved, both territorially and in nature. It was already not as much as an empire during and after the Interregnum than before. And it was still somewhat holy and an empire in 1789, mainly in form of the ecclesiastical territories (usually loyal to and dependent on the Emperor) and the small territories mostly in the south with the Franconian and Swabian Imperial Circle that needed mutual cooperation and imperial protection. The dynamic map is maybe the best to show the evolution and not well-defined borders of the HRE. Errors in the map can be corrected. Currently disputed is the inclusion of Sardinia and the exclusion of Imperial Italy after 1648. Sardinia seems to be a clear case and is easy to fix. Imperial Italy is complicated, it was still a fiefdom to the Emperor and partly reigned by the Habsburgs but not integrated in most imperial institutions and most maps do not include it (one major exception is Peter Wilson in "Heart of Europe"). The main reason I see for 1789 is that it was the last "stable version" of its territory before the revolutionary expansion of France and the mediatisation/secularisation kicked in. It was the HRE prior to its end, not in its end (like 1801 or 1806 would be). Palastwache (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Palastwache, when you say "and it was still somewhat holy and an empire in 1789" that's just your opinion, after all Voltaire said: "This body which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was in no way holy, nor Roman, nor an empire." Also, you say that HRE "[was] already not as much as an empire during and after the Interregnum". So, if HRE started in 962 when Otto was crowned emperor by Pope John XII, you are arguing that even during the Ottonian dynasty it was not an empire. I find your logic faulty on all statements. --E-960 (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never argued "that even during the Ottonian dynasty it was not an empire". Neither did I mention the Ottonians nor did I say "not an empire" (Maybe my English was imprecise - when I wrote "not as much as", I meant "less"). I only mentioned the weakening of central authority during the Interregnum (starting around 1250). Authority which later Emperors like Maximilian I partly (but not fully) regained (the article mentions it, that's not just my opinion). The parallel existence of working institutions like the Imperial Diet, Chamber Court, Aulic Council or Circles on one side, with strong, autonomous local rulers characterized the HRE for large parts of its existence until shortly before its dissolution. So 1789 is not untypical in this regard. But I actually agree with you that the HRE became more a shell of an empire when Austria and Prussia became great powers on their own and started to fight each other. So, I prefer the (maybe aesthetically improved) dynamic map for the infobox. In this regard, we definitely agree and that's more important than our friendly clash about the nature of the HRE. Palastwache (talk) 21:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coat of arms

Latest comment: 4 months ago 5.197.227.247 (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Succsessors?

The infobox mentions the Confederation of the Rhine to be one of the successors to the HRE, but the Confederation was more like a superstate like the EU. And the infobox doesn't mention the countless smaller states within the HRE Crainsaw (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's clearly impractical to list the hundreds of small states. I'm not sure I see how the Confederation as a superstate like the EU is appreciably different from the late-period HRE. Furius (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Map

A map is being fought over...again. This revision [1] changed the infobox map due to what would appear to be a factual inaccuracy, at least according to the old image's file [2]. The user who made the change, @62.7.235.211, eventually added this "(c. 1200- c. 1250)" to the caption. These changes remained virtually unchallenged until the map was disputed over again with this revision [3]. @151.37.37.64 sought to keep it, writing "problem date: “1200–1250”; source?" for their edit description. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 15:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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