Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard: Difference between revisions

In the past Kumioko has complained perhaps rightly that the ban discussion was rushed. The banning policy calls for at least 24 hours discussion, I think we can do at least 48 hours so that we can lay to rest the idea that the community came to the wrong decision because we rushed. Ideally it can be closed by an admin who has no prior involvement in this case if there are any. This is a user who looks for any excuse to invalidate the legitimacy of their ban so lets not give him any. HighInBC 23:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. One of the reasons I blocked for thirty days and not indef is because I didn't want to perpetually hear, "I was blocked indef only because NeilN doesn't like me." Goes without saying but I'm fine with whatever the community decides after a proper discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your restraint. Not sure I would have had such foresight in your shoes. HighInBC 23:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, looking at Reguyla's block log, there was every single indication that any conditions laid out for him would be ignored, and a HUGE part of his MO is complaining that the admin corps hates him. He would have complained about the block no matter who levied it, even if it was for 24 hours, and he would have defied his terms of unblock. The assumption of good faith is not a suicide pact, and we have long reached the point where Kumioko should be barred from participation permanently. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 23:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that no matter what it is likely they will cry foul. However even in the ban discussion above long term contributors are expressing concern that the original ban was rushed. I want that concern to be put to rest. HighInBC 23:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is wise to let the discussion continue for 48 hours or more, so that no one can say that it was rushed through. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I imagine this discussion is going to get quite convoluted so it might be worth having closers worked out. From memory I've been uninvolved (apart from a few clerk comments at SPI and a clerical block here) with Kumioko/Reguyla so I'm happy to close this in a couple days. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Not that I'm even being considered here, but as someone who has had positive interactions with Kumioko, I will have to recuse here as I am clearly biased.—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 00:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the above comment from @Callanecc: is indicating he thinks this thread might benefit from multiple closers, maybe it might make sense to have a separate section below where those who wish to take part in the closing can indicate as much? John Carter (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not necessarily that it needs multiple closers (but not a bad idea if the community wants it), just that there was a need for someone to put their hand up early on. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - please, leave this open at least a week. If a ban is the outcome, it must not be rushed. Worm^TT(talk) 07:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We did 48 hours the first time: Original ban discussion: Filing: [6] 22:16, 25 February 2014 Closing: [7] 22:28, 27 February 2014 Elapsed time: 2 days, 12 minutes. NE Ent 11:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse leaving open for a week. In Kumioko's mind, his continual socking and block-evasion were justified because all his various blocks and bans (except last August's ban review) were too hasty or otherwise invalid. Let us leave no possible scope for doubt or complaint over the result of this. Multiple closers would be desirable for the same reason. JohnCD (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I personally have no objection to keeping this open for a week, or whatever, but I don't think it will make a whit of difference. Kumioko's reaction is going to be what it's going to be, whether it's closed in 48 hours or a month. Once again, we need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that his responses are rational ones; his behavior for years has shown that not to be the case. BMK (talk) 23:18, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, we're talking about the "48 hour ban discussion" as if it came out of nowhere, but that was not the case. There had been a number of previous noticeboard discussion in which there was considerably support for indeffing or banning Kumioko, but these discussions were closed with no consensus. Thus there's history behind the "48 hour" discussion, it did not appear ex nihilo, and because of that it was not an unreasonable amount of time to reach a consensus. BMK (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse, he will doubtlessly sulk and complain no matter what we do, however we shouldn't go out of our way to give him fuel. No good reason to rush this or act rashly. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

• Unfortunately, like a self-oxiding pryotechnic, it doesn't really matter whether we "provide fuel," or not. The behavior to date is quintessential WP:NOTTHEM NE Ent 03:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My first thought was this is a good idea; but I really don't think it is, as it gives credence to the canard the first ban discussion was somehow improper or hasty. NE Ent 03:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse: Sufficient discussion and consideration won't kill anyone. "Sulking and complaining" is completely normal behaviour to expect from people who feel (rightly or not) that they've been run though a hostile gauntlet and have not been listened to. If he starts up again with anti-admin ranting, well, so be it, indef without further big discussions of it. Reguyla: If you're let back, just please STFU about how sore you are about it and any further finger pointing. Go write a Facebook rant about it instead or something. WP itself is not the venue for it, no, not even on your talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion's been open 5 days and there has been no new opinion expressed on the main proposal for 24+hours, probably a sign that the conversation is mature and it's safe to close now. The Land (talk) 20:58, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I suggested it be closed after no sooner than 48 hours. I get why people proposed a week but at this point it is getting stale, few new comments are coming in and even Reg has said it can be closed. It is of course something for the closers to decide. HighInBC 21:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page messages left for Callaneecc, KTC, and Katie. NE Ent 21:39, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Probably worth creating a section for this. I imagine we'll only need one to three closers, with the thread to be closed around 20:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC). So who would like to join me (assuming the community is happy for me to do it, see disclosure above)? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why there need to be more than one closer. But if you want, give me a ping when the time comes. -- KTC (talk) 00:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Me too, if you like. KrakatoaKatie 05:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've emailed them both my thoughts on closing so we should have this closed in a day or two. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:38, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is not hard.

• Reguyla is responsible for what Reguyla did, no one else.
• Floq is responsible for / entitled to his decision to take a break; the choice is his, and in his own words I'm not a child.
• WTT is only responsible for his actions, no one else's. Did I personally agree with the unblock? No. Was it a violation of policy? No. The community imposed a ban; the community later removed the ban, making Reguyla eligible for an unblock if any admin thought it was not longer necessary to stop disruption. We tolerate good faith mistakes because if we don't, there will be no one left to write the encyclopedia. NE Ent 01:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  ^This. Without commenting on whether Reguyla should be banned or not. It's not WTT's fault floquenbeam (talk · contribs) left.—^cyberpower_{Chat:Limited Access} 02:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Not to mention, WTT clearly acted in good faith. At best, he should be reprimanded, but I doubt at this point that's even necessary or desirable. My hope is that he takes a lesson away from this: Always do the research on editors who are seeking unblock. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  That's how I saw it Ent. I'm responsible here, not for violating policy but for believing that Kumioko could come back and be a decent editor. You know what, I still do. Worm^TT(talk) 08:04, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry, WTT, I respect you immensely, but you really have to disabuse yourself of that notion, Dennis (another admin I admire) too. Whatever happened to Kumioko to put him over the edge -- and I don't believe for a minute that two failed RfAs were the chief factor, there's got to be something else going on -- is not going to be solved by his getting access to Wikipedia. If anything, his obsession with Wikipedia is simply part of the problem, but we're not here to solve people's personal problems. BMK (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no absolute reason Kumioko cannot return to constructive editing. It's apparent that he will have to work alongside people who have behaved in reprehensible ways in the past, as well as people who he believes have done so. This is not going to be easy. Conversely, for a number of those people the same applies.

These difficulties are not insurmountable. Happy to discuss them here or elsewhere.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:03, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Yours is clearly, by a very wide margin, a minority opinion, and is not supported by the evidence. BMK (talk) 21:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kumioko has contributed constructively in the past. He has contributed to other open knowledge projects. He claims (and we have no reason to doubt) that he has articles ready to go.

Therefore the evidence is that he has the ability and desire to contribute to en:WP.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Claims are not evidence. His long-ago behavior has been completely usurped by his long, long reign of misbehavior since then. He has shown absolutely zero ability to edit constructively in years. His desire to contribute was so lacking that when he was unblocked he immediately acted out again, subverting his own chances. That's the relevant evidence here, not what he did with semi-automated editing tools years ago. BMK (talk) 22:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reguyla asked on IRC to be unbanned for the purposes of participating in this discussion. I did not agree to unblock, but I do think he should be allowed the opportunity for a response. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to post a statement but given the length of this discussion its going to be a bit long, sorry. I also am disappointed that again the community is having a ban discussion and refuses to let me participate in it to defend myself or argue in my own defense.

I cannot believe that we are having a ban discussion the same day as I was unblocked over a minor comment. I also cannot believe I got a month block for a comment that shouldn't have gotten more than a week at most. So about that comment first, WTT unblocked me and left the statement he left. I didn't agree with all of it and wanted to comment to clarify it. I fully intended it to be a one time statement and I was moving on. I was able to do a few edits, but much of my time today was simply responding to comments about my unblock.

With regard to the hyperbole about how horribly disruptive I am. Yes I over rected to my ban. A small group of people kept resubmitting ban requests till they got what they wanted. I have apologized for that several times in several ways. In August of last year the community had a ban review discussion and voted to unblock me in February 2015. Several people who did not agree with my unban created a disruption on my talk page, blocked me and then started a discussion at AN that I was not allowed to comment on. They extended my block to May and then again to August. Then Floquenbeam indef blocked my account, so the indef was not from the community as a couple has stated It was from Floquenbeam who clearly stated that my unban was a clear farce anyway. I have ignored the last three extensions since because they were invalid. There is no reason for three people who opposed my unban to be allowed to start a new discussion to change the outcome. So I have ignored the block extensions first and continue to abide by the community unban decision.

For more than the last year ALL of my edits and contributions have been positive. I have reverted vandalism, created articles and tagged articles for WikiProjects. So arguments that I am not here to participate or am being disruptive, at least for the last year, are hogwash. In fact, several people have taken it upon themselves to create a disruption in my name if any account is thought to be me by deleting the articles created, restoring the vandalism I reverted and reverting the edits. This damages the project and causes a disruption for no reason when there is no policy or reason to do it other than to create drama. The only thing I did wrong was not use my Reguyla account, which should have been unblocked last February.

So Worm that turned and I talked and he agreed to unblock me with restrictions that I did not agree with but was forced to concede to because no admins were willing to follow the last community unban decision.

Several people commented that I am not a positive participant in the project, well how can I be if you won't let me edit. The site admins refuse to follow the community decision so I follow the community decision through Ignore all Rules. "If a rule hinders improvement of the project, then ignore it".

So, if the community is unwilling to follow the community decision to unban me but allow some to keep insisting a new ban discussion is needed to keep me banned, why should I follow it? I am trying to contribute positively but if all you do is find reasons to block you will keep finding them.

Do not unblock. Enough is enough.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Ymblanter, enough is enough. Its time to follow the community unban discussion that was decided last year. Its time to stop having ban discussions for no reason like this one. Its time to stop manipulating policy to keep me blocked for no reason. The community already unblocked me last year and ever since I have been following the spirit of that unban. I can't do anything not having an admin willing to perform the action and I cannot do anything about the lack of respect for the community or its decision that teh admins conttinue to ignore. I can however control participating in a positive way in the spirit of the community unban decision. You don't have to unblock me and you can even revert my edits, but does reverting and deleting positive edits out of spite really benefit the project or our readers? Does it really help the project to make drama just for the sake of it just because I think all editors, admin and regular edit should be treated equally? Does that opinion really make me that much of a threat? My opinion is no.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stay away from Wikipedia for a full year. By showing restraint & faithfully serving your ban, you could get reinstated. GoodDay (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I notice a lot of "me me me" in Reguyla's communiqués. Where's the "we", "us", etc.? I'm sorry, but, Reguyla, you're coming across as a man on a mission from God. You may have been - may still be - a productive editor when left to content. But, to put it very bluntly, you're displaying some horrible narcissism here. You clearly don't give a toss about the whole "crowd" aspect of "crowdsourced" and scream that you're being repressed when criticised. The whole reason we're even debating a community ban yet again is because you're more interested in relitigating battles lost as opposed to editing encyclopædia content. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think it is a good idea to post here all comments of a blocked user thereby letting him to evade the block. They were blocked and the talk page access was revoked for a good reason.--Ymblanter (talk) 04:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think he should be given opportunity to respond, especially given that this discussion will probably only be open for another day or two. I've asked him to please keep the responses minimal. GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think Reg should be able to have his say during this discussion. I personally want as little excuse to complain about the result as possible. HighInBC 05:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He has been given too many opportunities to respond, which, in fact, led to his immediate block earlier today. And by posting all his comments here, I am sorry to say, you are acting as his sockpuppet. From my part, I am going to ignore his comments while he is blocked, even if he directly addresses me.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Reguyla's whole argument is nonsensical in my view, because all blocks have been by the books, and he knows exactly how to request unblocks, but instead of effectively requesting unblocking, he flagrantly sockpuppets instead, because he believes himself to be above the law. This is sheer lunacy and a blatant flouting of policy. Stop referring to a community discussion and so-called decision that occurred over a year ago. Deal with the reality of current time, and current actions. Softlavender (talk) 08:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NE Ent Thanks for showing those links to those statements in my comments NE Ent. Would you mind providing links now for everyone showing the personal attacks towards me by Floquenbeam? Or his frequent tendency to tell others to Fuck off? Like the one where he told me to Fuck off maybe! Or the dozen or so others in the last year. Or maybe you could provide everyone a link to the Arbcom discussion that advocating someone sending a letter to my employer, outing me in an attempt to get me fired. Does everyone know about that incident and what level the Arbcom is willing to go? I bet not. So yes I made my share of mistakes, but yur narrow and one sided argument completely ignored all of the abuse I endured that caused me to become so angry and frustrated with the project and the admins in it. Not to mention the ongoing namecalling and abuse currently going on in this discussion that I cannot even respond to myself to ensure it stays one sided against me.

NeilN Neil, As soon as you saw I was unblocked you started running around the project looking for a way to block me. I saw you pop up in at least 3 places asking if you could block me before you finally did after getting the approval from WormThatTurned. That is exactly the sort of hounding I am talking about. There are enough policies and rules in Wikipedia if you want to block someone its easy to find a way. You went looking for a reason to block me and found one.

GoodDay - I know you faithfully served out your year ban and now feel anyone who is banned must do the same. We were banned for very different reasons though so its realy not the same.

Jéské Couriano - Please stop twisting my words. Editing Wikipedia is a collaboration and I have stated that all along. Its not a me thing it is and always has been an us thing. The fact that you don't know what I was even banned for shows me that you don't have all the facts. The comments are mecentric because I am the one you are trying to ban, again, eventhough I have effectively been banned all along since no admins are willing to perform the unblock that the community decided last year. This whole ban discussion is nothing more than another instance of I didn't like the last decision so I am going to change it.

Stabila711 Your right, no one in this project is irreplacable. Not me and not Floquenbeam or anyone else. I had over 500, 000 edits and many artices created and featured content. No one cares. I am just an editor. Floquenbeam blocked many, many people and drove many others away with his over zealous personality and insistence he was always right. He is an admin and a hero. In the end, many editors and admins have left and the project continues although, I would argue it gets weaker and continues to decline as everyone can see. I did not cause Floquenbeam to leave, Floquenbeam chose to leave. I was forced out and am fighting to get back in, thats the difference between us, good or bad. I am not a quiter even if some here want me to be.

For the most part, all the people who are supporting my ban are the same ones that Supported it the last tie, and the time before that and the time before that. Several have mentioned second, thirdm etc chances, but I have not had any chances. I have been continuously blocked for more than 2 years because people that do not want me to edit continue to manipulte the outcome. Even if I did not make a comment and get blocked we would still be here now. Someone would have drug me back to AN with some justification that I should be banned. Its time to move on folks, its time to stop making all this drama and let me edit again. I was a high output editor and will be again if you let me and drop the torches and pitchforks. I'm not perfect, but there is no need to continue to create ban discussions of minor comments that aren't even worthy of a block. Is this really what the ENWP project has come too? Do you really not hae anything better to do than to blame editors for disruption when there is none and I mean literally zero disruption. In fact, to those that said I caused a disruption, please show me in the last year where an edit I did was an actual disruption to the project. I would love to see some links of what you think is a "disrupton" and I am sure others will as well.

Now I know I can be an asset to this project if everyone drops the sticks and gives me a chance but its a hell of a lot harder if I am banned and that doesn't improve the project. I have literally about 70 articles ready to be loaded, mostly Medal of Honor recipients,Some ships, some generals and other bios and a lot more to offer in cleanup. I am not coming empty handed here. But it doesn't do me much good to create these articles on ENWP just so a couple of admins who don't care about the project to delete them and claim disruption.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Well thats informative. I certainly advocate contacting a abusers employer when they perform abuse from their workplace. In fact I did it regularly when I was a network administrator. I contacted employers, schools, parents, their ISP's... Oddly enough contacting their mother's usually got the quickest solution to problems. While I dont advocate telling trolls to fuck off as an optimum response (it only feeds them) its certainly not a big deal. When you provoke someone and get a reaction, to then bitch about the reaction as it is somehow their fault is beyond a joke. And at this point, I think the community repeatedly banning a troll is a giant 'fuck off' even if it doesnt use those words directly. Perhaps he should just take the hint. And in related news, why does he still have access to IRC? Who is in control there that he is still allowed access? Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Same martyr complex. I asked WTT once as a courtesy to them why I should not block you. [8] I didn't need their permission or approval. Even then, I did not block you until you continued on. This is like a teenager complaining about being grounded for lighting up a cigarette in front of his parents right after he was told he'd be grounded if he smoked again. "You were looking for an excuse to ground me!" --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're just not getting it, Reguyla. Stay away from the Wikipedia for the length of time the community demands. If you had taken my advice before & walked away for 6-months, the situation would've been better for you now. Sock-puppeting, emails aren't exceptions. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kumioko, I wouldn't have cared enough to start the ban discussion if it weren't for the fact that you essentially backstabbed WTT by completely disregarding the terms he unblocked you under. And WTT made those terms the way they did for a reason: You have a very hard time letting go of (perceived or actual) wrongs committed against you in the past, to the point where you're coming across as a parody of who you used to be. What happened to the content creator quietly creating content? Did he get slain and replaced by the bickering, my-way-or-the-highway doppelganger when we weren't looking? —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• @GorillaWarfare: I wish you wouldn't post here on the user’s behalf, effectively circumventing their block and WTT’s removal of talk page and email access. You could consider reenabling them if you’d like the user to participate in this discussion. - NQ-Alt (talk) 17:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree: (a) we should not give him the chance to complain that he was condemned without a chance to defend himself, and (b) his responses are quite illuminating and may help to form our decision. JohnCD (talk) 16:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I think John has it right. If we deny him a voice he will add it to his list of "unfair" things that has happened to him. Letting him speak only allows a more informed decision from the community. NW-Alt's should take into account that it is normal procedure to post comments by blocked users in threads discussing them and we also even unblock users to participate in such discussions. GorillaWarfare is not doing anything wrong by posting the messages here. HighInBC 16:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree that this comment from Reguyla is anything but a positive development. In it, he seems to be demonstrably incapable of recognizing that WP:CONSENSUS takes priority over his personal whims and desires. There is no way anyone would see repeated statements of that type, and this is by no means the first one from him, without having questions whether this person is perhaps in some way impaired. I have never been in the military, although, as someone who grew up near a major air base, I know that anyone who displayed such disregard for authority and remarkable self-righteousness would have a better than even chance of being basically personally disowned by his wing and/or squadron. However highly any individual may hold himself, boasting "I am breaking every rule in the book but doing it in a good way, so I deserve thanks and praise," will basically come across as, well, delusional. If he honestly wishes others to believe there is any real chance that he could ever show any regard for policies and guidelines when they disagree with his own personal goals and intentions, the time to do so is now. And, unfortunately, the above comment really doesn't in any way come anywhere near doing so. John Carter (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• "Now I know I can be an asset to this project if everyone drops the sticks and gives me a chance but its a hell of a lot harder if I am banned and that doesn't improve the project" Yep, I know, and I would have been willing to support that, but "Floquenbeam blocked many, many people and drove many others away with his over zealous personality and insistence he was always right. He is an admin and a hero." See, that's where you're wrong. Floq was one of the admins who always gave people a chance to improve. You've let your hatred of the "admin" culture (very clear in your rantings after you were unblocked) spill over into plain false statements about a named person. I couldn't give a shit about people telling me I'm a useless admin (we get that all the time), but regardless of whether Floq goes or stays, you've caused your own downfall here. I would have given you a chance, but not now. Sorry. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doc9871 Doc, if you are going to make statements, please at least make them factual.

Comments like calling me a vandal and a liability are not needed nor factual. I am being banned in this discussion for statements far less than this. If I am as bad as people are claiming then facts should be enough.

All of the things you state are over a year ago, second I have never been a vandal and third I am not a liability. If there is a disruption here, its because its being created by others, I wasn't unblocked long enough to create a disruption and although making a comment on my talk page might be annoying to some people, its far from a disruption to the project, unlike this long discussion that was started without even giving me a chance to get back to editing. People have stated I had multiple chances, but I have never been given a chance. I have been blocked continuously for 2 years and no one. Not one of you has given me a chance to get back to editing until Worm unblocked me.

Maybe if people stopped lying about me like you and others have done here Doc, in order to justify an unneeded ban, then I would have had a chance at getting back into editing. There are new users voting to support my ban here that don't even know who I am nor have they interacted with me and haven't been here long enough to even know what they are supporting. They are just following the mob. But its clear from statements like yours that people are going to say and do anything just to keep me from editing. Sure I have used socks to edit, and I lost my bearing when I was people manipulated a ban on me but for over a year I have contributed positively (although yes though other accounts). Clearly its now commonplace to have a full ban discussion over a comment on my my own talk page, but its still an extremely weak justification for a ban and far from being a disruption as people claim...just like when I was banned over making a comment the first time, 2 years ago, and a couple people tried resubmitted over and over to get me banned until they got what they wanted.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Today: "...second I have never been a vandal..."
June 15th, 2014: "Even today, I made about 200 contributions, mostly vandalism and fictitious page moves and most haven't been undone..."
Why does anyone believe what this person says or promises? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:45, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, NeilN - that was the exact diff I was looking for. And I'm the liar according to this character. Doc talk 20:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NeilN First I want to state that link you provide was over a year ago and before the community unban review. I don't expect you to believe me but I wanted it on record that I have never vandalized the project to my knowledge outside of the talk page comments (that could be argued as vandalism by some I admit) and have done nothing but positive contributions since around July of last year. Please provide links to prove otherwise. Particularly after August of 2014 when the community ban review that was ignored by the admins decided I should be unblocked in February. What I see in this discussion is a lot of people who want my head regardless of the reason. I gave them a reason with the comment, but they would have found one anyway. A lot of the people are voting support with comments like "This guy again". They don't know why, just that its my name. This AN discussion is full of hyperbolic statements and accusations and lies. Multiple people see that and some don't. You cannot prove I did any vandalism because I didn't regardless of what I said in anger. You cannot prove a disruption so you created one with this discussion, because that comment was many things but it was very, very far from being the enormous disruption that this discussion has become.

So yes I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind. Disruptive even. I agree there was a point after my ban that I became disruptive because I was hurt, frustrated and felt completely betrayed by the project and the community I had dedicated so much time too. I have apologized for it many times, to many people and in many different venues. At one time Godzilla was a little bity lizard and Darth Vader was a child, things change over time and so have I. I lost my respect for the community and the project back then and lost my composure. For that I am sorry. I should have just said fuck it and walked away from the project like so many other editors and admins have done. But I didn't, I went off the rails and damaged my reputation and my history of contributions on the project. I can't change what I did, I can only move forward, if the community will allow me too. I would ask if there is some path to get back into editing but I know there isn't. Just like I told Worm months ago that this unblock request was doomed to failure, but we agreed it was worth a try. He and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong. Clearly the community is not ready for that yet so it doesn't matter what I want or what they want. If this small group of community members want me out of the project and that seems evident in this discussion then fine. There are plenty of other projects to devote my time too even though this one is the project I am most passionate about.

If you want to blame someone for this mess then blame me. Worm and Dennis didn't do anything and neither did GorillaWarfare by posting my responses. So if you have issue with me, then blame me, not them. You are free to close this discussion at any time. It is evident that there is no desire within this community for me to participate here so there is no need to continue this AN discussion just to ensure I cannot complain about the process. The process is fine, the consensus is that my ban is to continue indefinitely as it has been for the last 2 years.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken: I generally agree that his statements aren't particularly helping his case, but I do believe it is important that the subject of a potential ban have some say in a ban discussion. That said, since he's willing for the discussion to be closed, I don't plan to post any more. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for considering my request. BMK (talk) 22:57, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It seemed like a perfectly reasonable approach to take. It's not like Reguyla used it as an excuse to post a bunch of "go **** all your mothers!" disruptive rants. He made his case, people didn't buy it, and he rather maturely (more so that most here would have given him credit for) accepted the result. I see no harm in that. Anyone who thinks it's just too much drama and "enabling" to let someone defend themselves on a forum that exists for discussion and resolution of editor behavior problems maybe needs a break from the noticeboards. I mean, they do exist, after all, for people to raise concerns and for those about whom concerns have been raised to rebut, and for the community to consider the differing views fairly. Last I looked, anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what to say about Floq's abrupt exit. I find it surprising and out-of-character, but people leave (and often come back after a year or whatever, as I did myself, and people do so for various reasons that are not always transparent to others). I believe we all own our own emotions, and I've stepped away from WP quite a number of times, for a month, 3 months, even a whole year, other than sporadic responses to things people e-mail me about. It's healthy to do so. This should be a pleasurable project to work on, not a source of stress, but we make that stress for ourselves for the most part by getting over-involved in disputes that, in the long run, really don't matter much. If you're making "enemies" as well as friends on WP, you're doing it wrong.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've often talked about my view of this, and this affords me an opportunity to expound my thoughts a bit more. This is going to be a very personal (and unpopular) opinion with which I expect most of the regular AN crowd to disagree. Kumioko/Reguyla, to my eyes, falls in the same general category as Eric Corbett, Niemti, Technical 13, Alakzi, Δ (and others I'm forgetting about, no offense): editors who are productive/constructive when it comes to encyclopedic content (or technical development of the project as a whole, including MediaWiki, Templates or tools), but otherwise can prove ill-natured, unpleasant, stubborn, intransigeant, prone to ranting/complaining or POINTy behaviour, prone to displays of anger or who sometimes lash out in frustration, and whose behaviour is often not conducive to a positive, collaborative community atmosphere. This class of editors... oooh, the community loves to hate them and bash them and wring them like dishcloths on any administrative noticeboard they can, waving the banners of civility and putting the well-being of the community before the health of the encyclopedia -- whereas I see encyclopedia content as paramount and the community behind it as secondary and optional. Working with good people is fun and preferable whenever possible, but I'd rather have to deal with jerks and assholes who write desirable and good encyclopedic content then hang out with nice, pleasant people who slowly circlejerk their e-peens around the so-called "dramaboards". The end result that serves readers should reign supreme and I wish the community would grant considerably more leeway for misbehaviour in interhuman relationships when the content contributions are worth taking a bit of verbal abuse. I guess I'm being utopic... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Salvidrim: Just to be clear, you are saying Kumioko's actions amounted to "a bit of verbal abuse"? I think it was more than that and you are doing a disservice to the other editors you mention. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. I did not say that, no matter how hard you try to make it look like way. Words are not a thing I want you to force into my mouth. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:58, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shrug. Your opinion makes little sense to me as no community = no encyclopedia. Nice edit summary, BTW. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:13, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And that notion of the community being so intertwined with the encyclopedia so as to equal its importance is something we must resolve to disagree on... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 04:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) Nobody is above the policies of civility. It comes down to the fact that this one person is alienating numerous other editors. One person, no matter how productive, gets to make other people so uncomfortable that they leave. That is not good for the encyclopedia either. In fact, I posit that it is worse since the one person can cause multiple other editors to leave eliminating a bunch of content creators. Nobody is irreplaceable. Nobody should have the right to cause others that much angst simply because they are a content producer. There are other content producers. People bring up what is a "net positive" for the project. Eliminating one problem content producer in order to keep many other content producers is a net positive for the project. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• When you are building the encyclopedia collaboratively, the community is neither secondary nor optional. Indeed, it's actually an integral part of the process and there is a reason that civility is in the Five Pillars. Being able to work with others and respecting the community is as important as the content it produces; for without either there would be neither. Your scenario is not Utopia but Dystopia and I highly doubt that you'd be contributing to this project if it was rife with the unpleasant attitudes you describe. You'd be somewhere else, we all would. Let's not pretend otherwise. Keegan (talk) 05:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • +1. This is a collaborative encyclopedia. The well-being of the community is essential to the health of the encyclopedia. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 06:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also +1. No "brilliant jerks" here please. The Land (talk) 12:04, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not used to being at the centre of a shitstorm, as anyone who has seen me around knows. I knew this was a possibility and have spent a long time trying to find a solution to this problem. Kumioko can be a good editor - I've seen him do it. He's got a long history of writing well, prolific anti-vandalism and putting the effort in. Unfortunately, he was burned by RfA a few years back - and that's why I care. RfA is a pet hate of mine and I spend a lot of my time trying to improve it.
So, Kumioko ended up on a downward spiral, ended up banned because he wouldn't shut up and then went and burned his bridges. Make no mistake, I've been on Arbcom, I sincerely believe he doesn't stand a chance of returning through BASC or UTRS. Yet, the community agreed to unban him - but in my opinion, gave him a woolly restriction that led to him being blocked - eventually leading to the indef.
I left it a decent period, following his edits, watching his attitude. I believed there was a gap for him to return. If that means I've been "drinking too much at the fountain of good faith", that's certainly my true - that's who I am. I believe in people and I believe in this project. The day I stop being that person is the day I leave. I'm sorry this has turned out this way. I'm extremely sorry to have lost floquenbeam, who I consider a friend and one of the best people on Wikipedia (also, I apologise for calling his actions an ultimatum, it appeared to be framed that way and I was wrong there)
That said, I don't regret giving him the chance. Based on the discussions I had and the evidence I'd seen (which was a lot, I didn't take this decision lightly) it was the right thing to do. I won't promise never to make a controversial unblock again in the future (though I will probably do things differently).
Finally, there were a handful of people who were aware this was going to happen, including an arbitrator who I assume told the rest of the committee. I was advised against it by some that I told, supported by others. But this was my decision - if there are repercussions, they should be on me and me alone. Worm^TT(talk) 07:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Worm, can you clarify this part: "I left it a decent period, following his edits, watching his attitude"? If he was indef blocked, what edits were there to follow, and what attitude to watch? Softlavender (talk) 07:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Softlavender. The attitude was by email - I've been one of those targetted by his email abuse campaign and I've watched the attitude turn from a hate-everyone to something willing to compromise. The edits are the block evasions, there were a handful of accounts and the vast majority of the edits by those accounts were good. If he compromised, as I sincerely believed he was ready to, and went back to making those edits yesterday, we wouldn't be having this conversation. There may be people hopping up and down that I unblocked him, but he would have been proving himself. Instead, he proved himself... the wrong way. Worm^TT(talk) 08:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for explaining about the block evasions. As Dennis says above, many people don't have the full story. It's not for lack of trying though, I don't think; the full story has not been given to us. I think it would be great if the full story would be given to us. (I personally think the various block evasions are yet another reason the site-ban should be instituted; but that's my personal opinion.) Softlavender (talk) 08:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My only real concern in this; why didn't you run such a controversial unblock past the community? If it was because you were sure the community would be set against it, wouldn't that be a red flag that what you were doing was not a good idea anyway? (For what it's worth, I would not have been against a limited unblock, but I think the way it was done went predictably poorly). Black Kite (talk) 08:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and the community is, rather predictably, experiencing it as a betrayal. Hindsight is 20/20, but in the future could we please avoid these backroom decisions to re-allow indeffed or banned users (who are already often continuing to block-evade and are thus doubly untrustworthy) back without due notice and due process? Softlavender (talk) 08:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. "Predictably poorly," - poor judgement, WTT, about others (Reguyla, and about your good faith collaborators commenting above, and to you before you did this). Also, WTT, you skate on the thin ice of hubris, with statements like 'it was the right thing to do' - no doubt you were told it would turn out poorly, and it has - no matter what happens now. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I sincerely believed that it wouldn't be nearly this controversial. He had already been unbanned, if he came back and just went straight to work, it wouldn't have caused nearly this level of controversy. Worm^TT(talk) 10:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• IMO, this should be dropped. WTT took a bold action in good faith, there was brief disruption, the block was reinstated. We do this a lot per WP:ROPE anyway, and I think WTT makes a good case that Kumioko's past good work does earn at least this much consideration. Guy (Help!) 09:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• My colleague with the sophisticated user name hit the nail on the head, as usual. I would add that no harm was done to the encyclopedia other than one snarky comment on a talk page that those who get overly upset by this sort of thing shouldn't be watching in the first place. If Reguyla/Kumioko doesn't get point after being hit in the head with a one-month clue-by-four just give him more WP:ROPE, let his strikes run out, indef him, and nobody will ever even think of unblocking him again. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I don't mean to pile on, but I confess I'm very concerned to also hear about the intended reintroduction of Betacommand, behind closed doors and without the community's prior knowledge. How often has this rehabbing of really notorious editors been done, and how successfully? Could we possibly call for an end to WTT's secret rehabbing of problematic banned/indeffed editors? I'm not making a judgment of why it is being done, I just don't think it's a good idea at all, and given the way this one turned out, and the likely scenario if Betacommand were released back into the wild, I think it's possibly time to consider another wiki "hobby". Things need to be done the right way, and for the right reasons, and for editors who abide by ban/block policies, not the scurrilous ones who don't. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Secret? No, I've not "secretly" been in contact with Betacommand - I don't believe I've ever had off-wiki communications with him. I offered to mentor him back in the day - probably 2012? I'll see if I can pull up the link. Worm^TT(talk) 10:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I interpreted your comment far above "Just noting that I've tried in the past to work Betacommand in a similar manner - just before his community ban. I hope there is a way back for him too" to mean that you were likewise grooming, or intending to groom, Δ/Betacommand to return. Softlavender (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I can see why. I can't find where I offered Betacommand mentorship. It's lost in the mists of time - it would have been before his community ban, maybe 2011/12 - I was just pointing out I don't pick favourites! I have found an email from him though, while I was on Arbcom, asking how to come back, my response was "Explaining what went wrong, how you might prevent it from going wrong in the future and what you hope to achieve by returning would be a good start". Worm^TT(talk) 10:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like Worm, I had been considering a path back for some time. Worm simply made it happen, which is why I endorsed as I had been familiar with the entire case. People are missing the point that Reguyla WAS brought before the community and unbanned, and they agreed to unblock after 6 months. This was well over 6 months ago. The "kangaroo court" comment was about the initial ban discussion, NeilN, where we banned him after a couple hours of discussion. I stand by that statement. We shouldn't be banning someone without at least a day or two of discussion, yet we did and too many are willing to ignore that fact that contributed to the problem here. It is no secret that we often get it wrong or simply do it wrong at ANI.

Has it turned out horribly bad? Yes, quite obviously. Again like Worm, the day I am not willing to take some risk to bring back a prolific editor is the day I will turn in my bits. I regret that Reguyla didn't have the good judgement to just return to editing, but what he did on his talk page wasn't what I saw in email over the last two years. Worm and I independently came to the conclusion that an eventual unblock was worth trying. We didn't work together on this, it wasn't coordinated in any way, although I endorsed his efforts and will stand by his actions as if they were my own. This wasn't a rushed unblock, it was a calculated risk, examined over a year. Not all risks work out. Such is life. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, this was my action and mine alone - to those who might be thinking of blaming Dennis, he was aware of it, but not involved in creating it or implementing it. Worm^TT(talk) 11:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why was the prior ban discussion is this exact forum a "kangaroo court"? Saying a "couple hours" shows a disregard for facts. Original ban discussion: Filing: [9] 22:16, 25 February 2014 Closing: [10] 22:28, 27 February 2014 Elapsed time: 2 days, 12 minutes. NE Ent 12:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. Admins who take controversial positions, inspire little to no confidence when they base them on fundamental factual errors, and in the process accuse others of bad faith (which is the meaning of 'kangaroo court'). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can I just add the obvious, which is that notorious indeffed or banned editors will, in emails, say anything, promise the moon, act like angels, and lie through their teeth, for months or years on end even, to get unblocked. Why is this not taken into account? And why do one or two admins believe they can have the measure of the man and the authority to by-pass process to let a notorious disruptor come back, on the strength of that disruptor's word? It sort of baffles me. But since that's what happened, I feel like I have to point out the obvious and say "You can't trust 'em." You can't trust someone who has repeatedly and inexorably proven themselves untrustworthy. Softlavender (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I've spent months looking into this, but it doesn't matter. I'm supposed to be on Wikibreak due to work, and simply don't have time to debate this ad nauseum. Do what you will, it is pretty obvious at this point where the discussion is heading and frankly, I don't think any amount of explaining would make a difference, and I simply have other things to do outside of Wikipedia that actually matter. I can accept that the community disagrees, that's fine, but this has turned into something else. That Kumioko/Reguyla has been stupid enough to feed the frenzy doesn't particularly help either. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Again with the "pitchforks and torches" allusion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• In as much as this was obviously an egregious error to unblock given Kumioko's history, I can easily forgive the good faith hope from WTT that this leopard could change his spots. However, reading Dennis Brown's comments, I think he should be completely enjoined from taking any administrative actions as it relates to Kumioko, broadly construed. Resolute 17:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never have taken any administration actions in regard to Kumioko, nor did I expect to, so I fail to see the point here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Quick question. Jehochman closed that AN discussion, which started as a proposal to ban Kumioko, but he closed it as a "mandatory wiki-break"--sounds like a block. I looked, but I don't see Jehochman placing a note in WP:Editing restrictions or on any talk page, though he deleted Reguyla's talk page, twice, the next day, or edit the block log/renew/revise the block. This is one of the rare cases where the difference between a ban and a block may well be material; we're all talking about a banned user, but if Kumioko was banned Worm couldn't have overturned that by himself. The log for KumiokoCleanStart actually has the block, by Atama, "Banned by the community per discussion at WP:AN". So what Jehochman called a break was a ban? Then, K's block log notes a block from June, citing a ban by the community--on 1 June 2014, by Callanecc, "see User talk:KumiokoCleanStart for more information". But there's nothing there from June 2014, and I cannot find an AN discussion about Kumioko from June 2014. So, did Jehochman ban or block Kumioko? What happened in June 2014--am I missing something obvious? Drmies (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Drmies, the full discussion is here in several sections. You have to read past Jehochman's initial attempt to close it to the final closing as a ban. Voceditenore (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• In the complained about posts Reg said " But its time to set that all aside and move on." it is outstandingly clear that "moving on" is the issue. Let Reg edit the project don't drag the whole thing down with meta- and meta-meta-arguments.
• And the attacks on our two best people-handling-admins, WTT and Dennis, really show the mob-mentality which I hoped had been purged from AN/I over the last couple of years.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

• • Opining they made poor decisions is an attack? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you read the whole discussion there is a lot more than "Opining they made poor decisions". And even that is not thought through. It can be, as they both maintain and a lot of respectable folk allow, a good decision with a bad result. Or it could be as I would say, a basically good decision that needed a little more careful execution to succeed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
      

• Why doesn't everybody here try to be a little generous and just let things resolve. Reguyla/Kumioko was banned and should stay banned until there's a clear discussion to unban him. It doesn't matter what injustices might have precipitated his reactions; they were disruptive enough that the editor has no excuse, and the matter should not be re-litigated at this point. If there was an excessively good-faith-assuming unblock, just accept it and move on. If Kumioko got re-blocked, let that stand. Wikipedia is far from being the only site on the Internet. Editors who don't fit in here, for whatever reason, can go some place else and contribute their energies where they are appreciated. We should not spend excessive resources trying to reform or conform. Jehochman ^Talk 18:40, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• If one were really interested in doing something to help build the encyclopedia here while being blocked or banned, I will say what I have said to Reguyla/Kumioko before. Over at wikisource:User:John Carter I have a rather extensive list of public domain reference works, some of which have been started there, but many haven't. A person could easily work transcribing material there, and even, in some cases, probably even persuade others to wait to import still reasonable content here for a while if one were under sanctions here. Then, on the return, one could have enough very useful material to add to enough articles from the first day that there would be little if any reason not to welcome their input. I know that Reguyla has said elsewhere he has been developing encyclopedic content on some wikia sites while blocked here, and he is clearly welcome to do so, but it might be more productive in the long term, and maybe more likely to help persuade others to lift sanctions here, if he were to do something elsewhere which could easily be done here as well, to the benefit of the encyclopedia. And, honestly, there is a hell of a lot of material on the US military, and the military in general, and the US in general, over there which could be developed for importation here - probably even a full year's worth. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Seriously, guys? This lynch mob, beating the everliving shit out of a dead horse after a situation had already been resolved exemplifies everything that's wrong with the AN/ANI crowds and why the people who work here in good faith aren't taken seriously for hanging out at the "drama boards". Christ. This entire discussion is both a comical and tragic overreaction to an administrator acting within his discretion and according to one of the key guidelines of this project: Wikipedia:Assume good faith. It was clearly an intensely thought-out and well-planned unblock with stringent conditions and that's hardly unreasonable or unusual. WP:ROPE is the overarching caveat to any risky assumption of good faith that basically represents the notion that if you do wrongfully assume good faith, it's not a big deal. Sure, he immediately made an ass of himself and immediately threw all that good faith out the window. He was reblocked and the project did not suffer at all for it. So what? There's no such thing as a permanent block and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving an indeffed user another chance in an assumption of good faith. Worm was proven to be wrong and has done nothing but own up to it. There's absolutely no reason for this shitstorm. Go contribute to the damn encyclopedia. Let me reiterate what JzG said: IMO, this should be dropped. WTT took a bold action in good faith, there was brief disruption, the block was reinstated. We do this a lot per WP:ROPE anyway, and I think WTT makes a good case that Kumioko's past good work does earn at least this much consideration. Everything beyond that absolutely is "torches and pitchforks"-esque and a round of trouts to everyone who contributed to this shameful attempt at turning this into a flame war. May you all soon return to actually contributing to the greatest compendium of human knowledge ever created, as opposed to drama mongering and beating up members of our own team, whose only mistake was to exercise too much kindness to another human being. Shame on you all and happy Tuesday! Swarm ♠ 22:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see anyone asking Worm for a pint of blood. Mostly the community is trying to put to bed an issue that has been taking up an inordinate amount of time. I find your characterization of this discussion to be belittling. This is not an angry mob, people are calmly making very good points. As far the comment about a flame war goes I would say your post was among the flamiest comments made here. HighInBC 22:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback, and no offense, but I found your commentary to be among the most excessive and unhelpful. You suggest WTT was attempting to "redefine terms set by the community" (i.e. actively and willfully flaunting consensus), you refer to it as a "cowboy unblock" (obviously implying that it was reckless, thoughtless, and in disregard of potential damage caused), you suggest in no uncertain terms that a policy violation was committed (alleging admin abuse), you suggest that it results in good editors leaving the project and that they are right to do so (rather than standing by the core principles espoused in WP:COOL, WP:ROPE and WP:NVC), you suggest that an admin cannot work out unblock conditions with a blocked user (this is something that's perfectly reasonable to do and is literally done in common practice)...this is all exaggerated, inflammatory and unnecessary and I can't rightly see any way you're helping anything. If you're trying to politely and calmly make what you feel are "good points" then I would suggest that you should try harder move on. Swarm ♠ 22:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One more point, Floquenbeam has long been my favorite editor on this project and I'm certainly not alone in that, but this is an obvious overreaction on their part and is certainly nothing to become a martyr over. This is a big project and it is unreasonable to lose faith in it over a singular incident. I am just as sad to see Floq go as everyone else is, but it's clearly a result of them both losing perspective and control of their emotions. This is understandable and it happens to all of us at some point, but let's not pretend that they've been mercilessly driven away by some egregious act of irreparable harm done and it's totally reasonable to give up on the project over this. Swarm ♠ 23:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I second what Swarm said above. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the characterization of Floq as a martyr, as unreasonable, as having lost perspective, and as having lost control of his emotions. You pretty much spelled out D I V A. No, we should not have yet another extensive back-and-forth over that, but that's some awful words you used, though you started nicely by saying "favorite editor". Admins get tired of dealing with shit (I've only dealt with Kumioko a few times), and Floq is only the latest one. Drmies (talk) 03:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry you feel my choice of words was awful Drmies, I totally disagree though. I wasn't trying to launch any sort of attack on Floq, nor am I trying to be condescending or dismissive, but I don't think I'm wrong at all, regardless of the high esteem I hold Floq in. I totally understand becoming burned out and sick of the bullshit but let us remember that Wikipedia is not compulsory, we involve ourselves to the degree we do completely voluntarily. No one involves themselves emotionally to the point of leaving the project over a single incident voluntarily, it happens when we lose the perspective that the users and conflicts on this website are not the end of the world, and when we lose control of our emotions. It's not an attack to point that out, hell, it's not a bad thing at all, it's a perfectly natural human occurrence. But let's be honest here. "Diva" implies that a user rage quits every time they get involved in a dispute and I am absolutely not implying that this is a diva move, but it is more of a rage quit as opposed to a rational, justified response to a disputed action. If Floq is giving up on the greatest compendium of human knowledge ever created, over this trivial, momentary distraction, that's a shame but I will not hesitate in suggesting that they have lost perspective. Not at all. Not one bit. Swarm ♠ 04:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I take issue with that. You don't need "rage" to quit a project that fails to prevent abusive people from interacting with editors. You call it trivial, but I consider a non-hostile work environment far from trivial. It was plenty rational, I only hope that the community's response will change their mind. I damn near walked away myself, and it was not out of rage. HighInBC 04:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I suggest that we should not be speculating on Floq's reasoning for the choices he makes. — Ched :  ?  06:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I vehemently opposed the idea of stopping the community from being able to look at Regulya's case above, because the community is his only viable way back. There will be people who absolutely oppose his return and I can absolutely understand why, but I have a question for the rest. Could Regulya be redeemed?

I've largely kept out of this AN, because he had me spitting feathers with his return. But for those of you who wondered how I could be so naive, see his final response above. I'm going to pick out a few lines.

• I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind

  Acceptance that he did wrong

• I lost my respect for the community and the project back then and lost my composure. For that I am sorry. [...] I went off the rails and damaged my reputation and my history of contributions on the project.

  Reflective explanation and apology

• I would ask if there is some path to get back into editing but I know there isn't.

  Willingness to move forward

• [Worm] and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong.

  Taking personal responsibility

• If you want to blame someone for this mess then blame me. Worm and Dennis didn't do anything and neither did GorillaWarfare by posting my responses. So if you have issue with me, then blame me, not them.

  Selflessness

• You are free to close this discussion at any time. It is evident that there is no desire within this community for me to participate here so there is no need to continue this AN discussion just to ensure I cannot complain about the process. The process is fine, the consensus is that my ban is to continue indefinitely as it has been for the last 2 years

  Acceptance of reality

To those who say Reguyla hasn't changed - read those sentences and tell me he hasn't. If you want to believe he's lying through his teeth, that's fine, but that's never been his style. Now, maybe the community is just not ready for him to return. But I ask, genuinely - what would it take for him to return? Worm^TT(talk) 08:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

People with Kumioko's personality traits can be very persuasive when they need to be. You have been, I'm afraid, taken in. Nothing about him has changed in the least. BMK (talk) 10:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not really happy with your attempt to define a person's psychological makeup and predict his future behavior when the only evidence you have are the words typed on one website. Then again, people with your personality traits tend to do that a lot, and you will never change. (Note to the humor impaired: that last bit was a bit of good-natured kidding among friends, not a serious comment about BMK.) --Guy Macon (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Quite a few editors have been subjected to WP:ACDS for doing precisely that. WP is not the place for ad homimen attempts at amateur psychiatry. As a matter of policy we're expected to AGF about mea culpas of this sort, and they're listed among the things that are most likely to get the ocmmunity to consider un-blocks, un-bans, second RfAs and other rehabilitation matters. It's a WP:TIGER/WP:ROPE matter. If after all of the above, Reguyla comes back and goes right back into the screw-all-admin and WP-process-can-go-F-itself antics, the stripes are shown and the rope drawn tight.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If Reguyla can stay away from Wikipedia (no socks, no emails, no ip evasions) for the length of his community ban? I would support his reinstatement. He must show restraint. GoodDay (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Over the past 6 years observing the community's moods and whims, it is actually very unlikely anyone ending up in similar situations can be redeemed, regardless of what they do. I cannot think of any single instance where prominent users subjected to a ban have come back and stayed on for the long term. Every single editor who tried is under constant scrutiny, and their past thrown in their face whenever it is convenient for someone disagreeing with them. Old opponents do not drop their grudges, ever, and bury the returning users under reports over the slightest missteps. Eventually, even the most patient editors snap - and those who were arbcom or community banned before tend to not be the most patient editors in the first place. So to answer the question, no, I don't think Regulya can be redeemed, because Wikipedia is not a forgiving community. MLauba ^(Talk) 08:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm one of the redeemed. It's true about the scrutiny, the past being thrown in one's face etc. That's happened to me almost every time, when in content dispute discussions. GoodDay (talk) 08:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A new clean start after the present block expires is probably the best bet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I would support a return to editing if he respects the community's above decision and doesn't sock for a while ... six months would do it for me. Clearly he loves this project. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He perhaps could be. I've had numerous interactions with Reguyla on IRC, many of which have resulted in my banning him from channels. He's definitely engaged in harassment and disruption to the point where I consider whether he'd ever be welcome back in the community. I never expected that Reguyla would think I was on his side after our interactions; I think he may have mistaken my willingness to post his comments as a form of support for his position. That said, if he's willing to take a year off from participating on Wikipedia (including socking, no matter how much net benefit he thinks he's making) and decides that he is willing to consider that perhaps not everyone is out to get him, I'd consider allowing him to return. That said, this has not been a promising return (in all stages: before the unblock, after the unblock, and after the reblock), so I think Reguyla would have to make a considerable effort to regain the trust of the community in order to return successfully. His continued threats to sock do not qualify, regardless how righteous he may think they are. GorillaWarfare (talk) 09:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Continued threats to sock? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That was unclear, sorry. I was referring to the socking he's been doing over the past year or so, not claiming that he's been threatening to sock during this whole process. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redeemed? This is not a soul in danger of eternal damnation in the fires of hell if we don't do something, and we are not Saint Good Faith performing miracles. Could R return to editing? In theory, yes, anytime they choose: see Quiet Return. In practice, of course not, because for many years it hasn't been about improving the encyclopedia, it's been about Reguyla improving the encyclopedia.

For example, seven years ago, an editor asked for help at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive151#Am_I_being_blacklisted; Reguyla's response [11] was: I doubt that you are being blacklisted, in addition to the absence of SatyrTN I have noticed a sharp decline in several areas of WP including edits in general. It seems that people just aren't participating as much lately. I for one have drastically reduced the amount of time I spend editing and creating articles because my RFA and other RFA's have shown me that the general feeling within the established community seems to be that participating in wikispace and non article pages are more important when striving to become an admin and get the mop. So although I no longer desire the admin bit the unnecessary buearocracy and drama that has been prevailing on WP of late also caused me a lack of edit-drive and thus reduced editing. Perhaps others have the same feelings. Good Luck.--Kumioko (talk) 3:47 pm, 19 June 2008, Thursday (7 years, 3 months, 21 days ago) (UTC−4) (emphasis mine)

The GW transcribed comments in green above, all essentially WP:NOTTHEM variants continue the pattern. That fact that attempting to frame this as something plausible required cherry picking and recasting Reguyla's actual comments is an indication of how little substance there really is here.

I don't know if Reguyla lies, because I don't know if his falsehoods are intentionally deceptive or simply misrememories, but he certainly prevaricates. For example the statement about A small group of people kept resubmitting ban requests till they got what they wanted. is to the best of my recollection simply untrue. I submitted the single, successful ban request and I'm pretty sure I opposed banning in discussions before that.

"Redemption" is a meaningless red herring; the relevant question is whether it is worth the continued expenditure of volunteer hours to pursue this. And the answer is obviously no. NE Ent 12:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reguyla has certainly talked the talk about understanding the reasons for his bans and how much he wants to focus on writing great encyclopedia articles. Then a moment later he's deliberately stirring up drama in such a way as to get re-blocked. That suggests to me that there is a very big gap indeed between his perceptions and reality, and that while he can use the right words to persuade people he's changing course, that doesn't reflect any actual ability to do so. It's against my nature to say "never" but I think this behaviour is very very unlikely to change. The Land (talk) 12:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Worm That Turned, let's just start with your first excerpt: I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind [my bolding]. You have characterised this as "Acceptance that he did wrong". Now take a look at the spate of BLP vandalism he indulged in on March 3. 2014, the most egregious of which was this followed shortly thereafter by this comment. Here's a further example of deliberately introducing false information by another of his socks a month later. Less harmful, but still vandalism to article space was to remove the featured list icon from multiple articles by yet another of his socks [12]. And as for lying not being "his style", just read User talk:ShmuckatellieJoe from start to sordid finish, he's been at it since 2012. And was he was still at it two months ago.

There is nothing in any of the remaining quotes that demonstrates anything but a determination to prevaricate and dissimulate so that he can continue expressing his unabated contempt not only for the people he thinks have wronged him but also for those who have tried to help him. The only way he could be "redeemed" as far as I can see, is for him to break the cycle of obsession, lies and abuse of trust for which he and he alone is responsible. He needs to stay away for one year, with no socking ("good" or bad) and come back with a pledge to edit productively and constructively with no excuses or justifications for what he did before. If he is unwilling to do that, well, no, he can't be "redeemed". If he is willing, well maybe. But there are no shortcuts. Voceditenore (talk) 13:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Having said that, I agree with NE Ent that "redemption" is a meaningless red herring here. Applying a concept like that to his destructive and self-centered shenanigans simply glorifies them and is truly inappropriate. The repentant sinner dialogue above means nothing. Voceditenore (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, agree with NE Ent's comment above. BMK (talk) 18:13, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[Worm] and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong. This perfectly illustrates the issue. He wasn't blocked for that one comment but a subsequent one. He seems remarkably self-unaware or is incapable of understanding that "don't do that" means "don't do that". How can a person change if they honestly feel what they're doing is going to be accepted? I ask as someone who has never participated in Regulya's RFAs or the block/ban discussions surrounding him but has cleaned up some of his socking disruption as a routine course of action. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In my humble opinion those seeking to limit reconsideration of this ban from the community are exceeding their authority. Consensus can change, and we cannot come to a consensus now that cannot be overridden by consenus later. If the community has a miraculous change of heart later it can of course change it's mind.

That being said I find it unlikely to happen. Even if this user can be redeemed I don't think it is reasonable for the community to spend more time than it has already dealing with this, we are not therapy.

This person is an expert sockpuppet and if they really wanted to come back and contribute without disruption we probably would not notice. We notice their sock puppets because they always mention how unfair his block was and how corrupt the admin core is. We notice them because he uses them to engage in extortion and to abuse our editors. We don't notice his sock puppets because we recognize his valuable contributions. This guy has at least one way back, just don't be disruptive with their next sock puppet. HighInBC 14:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think if someone with a similar writing style who wrote extensively about Medal of Honor recipients showed up today, he would be banned by approximately tomorrow, even if his manners were impeccable. Everyking (talk) 02:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, and therein lies the rub. Our current process is counterproductive in this regard.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That this section is being proposed while we are debating the CBAN proposal smacks of deliberately creating an alternate proposal to water down any concluding consensus. Hasteur (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's entirely normal in any RfC-like process to introduce alt. proposals. Why should this page be different? They usually are ignored, but fairly often they turn out to be the better option.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Worm I must say your comment If you want to believe he's lying through his teeth, that's fine, but that's never been his style is a little shocking. There is an abundance of evidence clearly available that shows lying through his teeth is very much his style and has been for years. This person is an expert liar who will say pretty much anything to get their ban removed. Are you reading the various diffs being posted? Do you remember a couple of days ago when he said he would follow your restrictions then immediately did not? HighInBC 20:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

HighInBC, Worm's impression is not surprising. Kumioko/Reguyla had so many socks that what he has actually got up to over the years has not always been formally documented in SPIs etc. RBI has its merits, but in cases like this, it's sometimes very counterproductive. Finding the chicanery and lies is often down to chance. I first encountered him when as an IP he interfered in a very unconstructive way with a very distraught user in a very fraught AfD for the user's autobiography. I followed various links, soon figured out what was going on, and caught Kumioko/Reguyla in another blatant lie here. This is one of the reasons that I found Dennis Brown's comments here so distasteful, stating that those of us who knew what was going on were simply a mob with pitchforks while he allegedly had the full picture but his "knowledge" was too complicated for him to explain to us peons. I'm an ordinary editor, not an admin, and I confess that I find sockpuppetry absolutely loathsome, worse even than incivility. It completely destroys trust amongst editors and the collegiality that makes Wikipedia work, and in this case led to Worm falling for Kumioko's lies hook line and sinker. I very much doubt that Kumioko/Reguyla feels any remorse whatsoever for that. Voceditenore (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is supposed to be about Reguyla/Kumioko's behaviour and the ways to face it. But we can see several attempts by User:Worm_That_Turned to derail this procedure and turn it into an evaluation of the behaviour of the unblocking admin. Before the unblock, this admin was rock-solid sure to know, better than anyone else, how to deal with the Reguyla/Kumioko's behaviour. Now, we are after the cristal-clear failure of this experiment. Nevertheless, User:Worm_That_Turned ensures assures us that the unblocking admin has not changed his mind and remains, as of now, convinced to know better than anyone how to redeem the lost souls. How to address such a situation ? Pldx1 (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am having trouble parsing your comment. You mention Worm and "the unblocking admin" as though they are two people. Worm was the unblocking admin, who did you mean? HighInBC 22:36, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To me Pldx1's meaning was quite clear: Worm = the unblocking admin. Sort of like Venus and "morning star". Voceditenore (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. I was thrown off by the User:Worm_That_Turned ensures[sic: read assures] us that the unblocking admin part which seemed to treat them like two people. Assuming that was just a language problem you are right it is clear. HighInBC 22:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Voceditenore and HighInBC are right to assume that my ensures was in fact an assures. Previous message modified accordingly. Pldx1 (talk) 07:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Venus = Morning Star? [Citation Needed] --Guy Macon (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to request that, without prejudice to former good-faith decisions made via email, all of the currently known Reguyla/Kumioko sockpuppets be publicly revealed, blocked, and categorized, and an SPI thread opened/started regarding them, so that (unkown and/or) future socks could likewise be compiled and categorized as such. It appears that at least two admins currently know of existing socks. I'd also like to request that, going forward, if any admin becomes aware of any user's sockpuppets, block-evading or otherwise, that they report and block the socks, regardless of the circumstances or rationale. Thanks, and no prejudice regarding past actions or decisions made in good faith. Softlavender (talk) 04:56, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Actually, no, bad idea. We're supposed to be here to build an encyclopedia, and if there's a quiescent sock that's not disrupting anything, what possible value is there classifying / categorizing / making a fuss about it? Building a shrine to disruption essentially ends up glorifying it. And the 2015 Wiki award to the editor with the most socks goes to ... NE Ent 10:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This is tantamount to saying that some editors get to evade blocks, and some don't; some editors get to sockpuppet, and some don't; some editors get to violate policy, and some don't; some editors get to violate policy repeatedly without the least bit of sanction, and some don't. How is this even a matter of consideration or debate? Policy is clear, and I don't see any policy that exempts anyone from policy. If I'm mistaken, and editors are now allowed to evade blocks and/or sockpuppet, please let me know where that policy is located. Softlavender (talk) 12:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NE Ent, there is one good reason not to do this and one jaw-droppingly bad one. You cited the jaw-droppingly bad one. We don't have the concept of being a little bit banned, and the entire point here is that Reguyla has to show that he can actually not violate policy for six months, which is not a big ask given how determinedly he has done so in the past.

The good reason for not doing it is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by rubbing his nose in his own mess, other than to provoke more of the same. Looking at your input to and evident delight in exploiting the various drama venues, I wonder if perhaps that wasn't your plan here, but if so it is not a good plan. Guy (Help!) 14:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'Actually a good idea I can't go into details, it would more than just slightly stray into WP:BEANS territory, but yes, it would be a good idea except for IP's, since CU's never link IP's with named accounts. KoshVorlon 15:44, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

KoshVorlon, for what feels like the thousandth time, please stop making comments about things you don't understand, as it only confuses other people reading your comments who don't know to disregard them. CU's never link IP's with named accounts is flat-out untrue, as a glance at Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kumioko (linked repeatedly in this thread) would have shown you. The relevant part of the CU policy is "Unless someone is violating policy with their actions (e.g. massive bot vandalism or spam) and revealing information about them is necessary to stop the disruption, it is a violation of the privacy policy to reveal their IP" (my emphasis); noting the IP ranges of known sockpuppeteers is fairly routine. What exactly did you think the {{IPsock}} template was for? ‑ iridescent 16:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's a good reason for comprehensive cataloging of sockpuppets in the cases at WP:Long term abuse. It serves as an institutional memory rather than depending on the memories of individual editors who come and go. It also makes identifying new cases faster and easier as it establishes an evidence chain. In some of those cases, the checkuser data on the original and earlier sock accounts is usually stale and/or destroyed. However, as bad as it was at its height, I don't think Kumioko's disruption rises to the level found at LTA (yet).

Having said that, the quantity of socks he used made it difficult to verify some of the claims made in this discussion, e.g. that none of his socks had vandalised articles, when several clearly had or that none of his socks had lied about who they were, when at least two of them had. For example, neither User:ShmuckatellieJoe nor User:RingofSauron appear in an SPI or in Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kumioko, although the former does appear in this 2012 ANI report. The latter I found by chance. He was using it right up until it was checkuser blocked 6 weeks ago. Like ShmuckatellieJoe, RingofSauron also tried to pass himself off as a new user [13]. He edited undetected (but without vandalism) for 3 weeks, including !voting in one RfA and one RfC. So you pays yer money and you takes yer chance. By the way, I presume WTT was aware of that latest sock when the "comeback deal" was worked out? If not, well, not good. Voceditenore (talk) 16:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the block-evasion editing continues. See the "Immediate unblock needed" section of the current revision of WP:ANI — yesterday, I made a kind-of-emergency request for help because I'd unintentionally autoblocked the Wikiconference USA, and I wasn't clear how to lift the autoblock, so I made a request at WP:ANI saying "someone please fix this problem". Someone using a pair of IPs jumped in to insert comments about why I shouldn't lift the block, why the First Amendment to the US Constitution should influence our (un)blocking decisions, etc.; you'll note that the same person using the same IP jumped into the Kumioko situation to say why he shouldn't be blocked. Nobody else would add such a comment to his talk page. You can see the whole discussion in the collapsed box right here. Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If folks start spilling the beans in public when they promised confidentiality, how would anyone ever be able to trust them with this sort of information again? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 05:38, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I agree that if an admin has promised confidentiality, they shouldn't "spill the beans". However, it doesn't stop others who discover the socking from bringing an SPI if they think it's worthwhile. Even so, if a serial and highly disruptive socker is asking for a new start and unblocking, and is expecting everyone to take it on faith that they have no intention of ever socking again, I would have thought that he/she would want to make a clean breast of things. As of 6 weeks ago, RingofSauron/Reguyla vowed on being blocked: "I can create new accounts forever and I will continue to edit positively forever.". The attitude of unblock me or I'll just keep on socking is hardly indicative of "redemption", is it? I've seen nothing in Reguyla's voluminous comments above which indicates that he no longer has that attitude. Voceditenore (talk) 07:28, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"People have stated I had multiple chances, but I have never been given a chance." That's from above. That is his attitude, and it always will be. He is right and we are wrong. Why is this such a difficult decision? Square peg, round hole. Does not fit! Doc talk 07:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]