Category talk:Don Bosco

Reasons for discussion request --AlbeiroR24 09:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Following the discussion in the Village pump. The name "Don Bosco" is more international and it is also hold as the English name.

•  Support as nominator. --AlbeiroR24 09:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

•  Oppose The category name is in accordance with Commons:Language policy. As stated in the other discussion by Man vyi, "For comparison Richard Lionheart is best known as Richard the Lionheart or Richard Coeur-de-Lion but category is Category:Richard I of England. William the Conqueror/Guillaume le Conquérant is in Category:William I of England."

Also, if you look at bs:Ivan Bosco, bg:Боско, Иоанн, ca:Sant Joan Bosco, cs:Jan Bosco, da:Giovanni Bosco, de:Johannes Bosco, en:John Bosco, es:Juan Bosco, fr:Jean Bosco, ko:요한 보스코, hr:Sveti Ivan Bosco, id:Yohannes Bosco, it:San Giovanni Bosco, la:Iohannes Bosco, lt:Šv. Jonas Boskas, hu:Bosco Szent János, nl:Giovanni Bosco, ja:ヨハネ・ボスコ, no:Johannes Bosco, pam:Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco, pms:Giovanni Bosco, pl:Jan Bosko, pt:João Bosco (santo), ro:Ioan Bosco, ru:Боско, Иоанн, sq:Giovanni Melchior Bosco, sk:Giovanni Melchior Bosco, sl:Sveti Janez Bosco, fi:Giovanni Bosco, sv:Giovanni Bosco, th:นักบุญยอห์น บอสโก, uk:Боско, Иоанн, vi:Gioan Bosco, zh:若望•鮑思高 - no one uses Don Bosco but they all use variants of Giovanni, or John. Evrik 14:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment To avoid repating the same arguments again and again, a copy of the previous discussions. "Category:John Bosco" to "Category:Don Bosco" --Foroa 12:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
•  Support and again a support vote as in Commons:Village_pump#Asking_to_move_Category_.22John_Bosco.22_to_.22Don_Bosco.22 Do we really have to waste our time repeating our position again and again ? --Foroa 18:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
•  Oppose Category name currently accords with policy. Although Giovanni Bosco would also seem acceptable per policy. Man vyi 19:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment In fact, there are more support than opposition and more reasons to move than those (two) who said that the move goes against the policies. However, the reason to move support the policy. "Don Bosco" is not only the English recognized name (easy to prove), but also the international one. 202.47.103.62

As there has been some discussion at the Village Pump, I will try to summarize the arguments. Keep in mind that this is not a vote, and that the merit not the number of arguments counts. I will not make comments as to the merits of the arguments, in this listing. These aren't my arguments, but taken from the discussion. I will give my own opinion afterwards.

• Moving to Don Bosco

• Don Bosco is more international than John Bosco, making it easier for international users to find.
• Don Bosco, despite different national names, is also known in many countries by "Don Bosco" or variants thereof. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
• Don Bosco is used by the Salesians of Don Bosco. [1]
• There is a consensus for changing to Don Bosco, or at least an overwhelming majority. Commons:Village pump/Archive/2008Mar#Asking to move Category .22John Bosco.22 to .22Don Bosco.22

• Keeping John Bosco

• Few national wikis use the name Don Bosco, they use the corresponding national variant for their article title.
• The policy says "use the English name", and John Bosco is the English name.

• Moving to Giovanni Bosco

• Giovanni Bosco is the native name.

• Neutral

• All variants are (more or less) commonly used in English, and category names are in English. Therefore, it does not really matter which one is chosen.

Now that the neutral part is over, let me state my own opinion: the arguments for using Don Bosco are based on convenience for international users, consensus and commonsense. I think those are pretty strong arguments. The arguments against using Don Bosco are based on interpreting policy and article names that were presumably based on national policies. IMHO, these are rather weak arguments. The policy argument is made even weaker by the fact that "Don Bosco" is seen, by a majority of voters, as an English name. So, if no new and compelling arguments come forth, I will move the category to Don Bosco and create a category redirect from John Bosco to Don Bosco. --rimshot^talk 09:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment no pages use Don as part of the article name. they all use a variant of John. So I really don't see how the use of Don is more convenient for international users. There is no majorty vote here. there is also no consensus for a move. Evrik 14:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the consensus: look here. For the use: google search might reveal de best known name:

• Google "John Bosco" wikipedia: 9230 hits
• Google "Don Bosco" wikipedia: 44000 hits
• Search on English Wikipedia: "John Bosco": 190 hits, "Don Bosco" 390 hits --Foroa 15:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• That was a vote. The policy is what it is. It's supposed to be neutral. This is a bad example to try and get an exception to the rule. Evrik 19:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment Thank you for the good summary. I think that we, in general, should be cautious with a blind "English" rule and try to move to compromises with a better multi-language and multi-cultural dimension. Don Bosco is a nice example, but there are others too. For example, we could use for the many images, articles and categories containing saint a more universal abbreviation such as st (E.g. St-Martin). As far as I know, is St-Martin acceptable in many European languages and acceptable as unisex symbol (for male and female saints). --Foroa 10:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
•  Comment the English rule as you call it is to make the commons a place where all people can work together. There is no reason to change the name of the category. Evrik

I already took into account your arguments, as you can see in the listing. There is no need to repeat them. If you want to change my opinion, please provide new and compelling arguments. I may not have been clear enough, so I will, again, state what weakens the main arguments for "John Bosco":

• Article names: what these tell us is that Don Bosco is called by variants of John in many countries, nothing more. If you read the articles, you will find statements saying that Don Bosco is also used. I don't speak many languages, but in those I do speak, you find the following:

• German: Meist wird er nur „Don Bosco“ genannt., which means Usually, he is just called Don Bosco
• English: ...known in English as Don Bosco
• French: Jean Bosco ou Don Bosco ..., which means Jean Bosco or John Bosco...
• Others are already found in the original discussion.

Also, some languages use variants of Don, so that argument is really incredibly weak.

• Policy: the policy says that the English name should be used. It should be clear even to you, however, that Don Bosco is just as English a name as John Bosco is.
• No consensus: there will never be a full consensus for any variant. An overwhelming majority supports Don Bosco, however.

Finally, Category:John Bosco will stay as a category redirect so all those intent on using that name to find images will be able to do so. --rimshot^talk 11:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Looking at the comments at the top of the page, there is no consensus to move the category. There is no consensus to make an exception to the language policy. Opinion is split. The category should stay as it is. Evrik 19:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look at the original discussion? Did you even try to imagine that it might be possible that Don Bosco is compatible with the language policy, not an exception? --rimshot^talk 21:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Don is a titles and not a name. Again, as of the last time I looked ... none of the articles were titled Don Bosco. Evrik 13:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I see your position as the only position. There are very strong evidences to support the move. Your only objection has been answer many times. I think there is not enough opposition and technically I think there is already a consensus and good reasons for the move. AlbeiroR24

• You can spin your argument all you want. The results are in fact, rather muddled. There is No consensus to make the move. That is fairly clear. Evrik 14:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"There is No consensus to make the move": Conclusion belonging only to User:Evrik. Consensus only before his position, little support to his point of view during discussion. Unknowing other positions. That is not fairly clear. Studying other procedures to continue discussion under the support of the records of this discussion. AlbeiroR24

• 'Don is a title and not a name. This is an exception to the naming policies. There is not enough support here to warrant that move. Evrik 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to let you down Evrik, but it is pretty clear that "Don Bosco" is also an accepted English name. Even though the language policy says to use the English name in categories, please don't take it so literally that the category must be named in the way only [near-]native English speakers would understand the name. In addition, if I could be so literal myself, the language policy is actually pretty loose on which English name to use in categories. The aforementioned discussions and this one lean toward favouring an internationally recognised English name. Therefore, the contents of Category:John Bosco will be moved to Category:Don Bosco, with the former category remaining a redirect. Any additional questions may be asked on my talk page. 哦，是吗？(висчвын) 00:58, 15 May 2008 (GMT)